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中国学术打假之国际化

(2006-08-05 20:17:50) 下一个


自从和邱老爷子对薄了公堂,中国的学术届和科学家就注定了悲哀。太多的司法、行政、政治、金钱、和商业的干预,使长期坐在象牙塔内闭门造车的科技创新,逐步进入计算机屏幕和大众媒体的监督。

随着经济一体化的到来和社会腐败的大众化,中国的学术打假,也已经提前实现了国际化。今年五月份世界最著名的学术期刊《自然》第四百四十一卷的一篇长篇新闻专题报道:名与辱(NAMED AND SHAMED),就把中国目前学术打假的渊源和黑幕,捅出了亚洲,走向了世界:

Nature 441, 392-393 (25 May 2006) | doi:10.1038/441392a; Published online 24 May 2006; Corrected 2 June 2006

Special Report:Named and shamed

David Cyranoski

Abstract

As accusations of scientific misconduct in China become rife, some fear persecution reminiscent of that used in the Cultural Revolution.

Chinese science risks being sliced up by a double-edged sword: rampant scientific misconduct on the one hand, and persecution based on false accusations on the other.

The lack of confidence in official mechanisms for properly investigating fraud has led to increased reliance on websites that challenge the records and publications of Chinese scientists. But many are concerned about the damage such untested allegations can cause; more than 100 Chinese scientists based in the United States have sent an open letter to the Chinese government, asking it to set up mechanisms to ensure that claims of scientific misconduct are investigated fairly.

China admits it faces a serious problem with scientific misconduct, including plagiarism, and the fabrication and falsification of data. The scale of the problem is unknown, but a recent spate of allegations has drawn attention to the issue.

In March, Hui Liu, the assistant dean of Tsinghua University medical school in Beijing, was fired, following claims that he had boosted his publication list with papers by another H. Liu (see Nature 440, 728; 2006). Liu has reportedly denied the charges and blamed the mix-up on a clerical error. In April, Sichuan University in Chengdu was criticized by the Chinese media for finding one of its professors innocent of fabricating a paper; the paper has been under attack since its publication in 2000. And two weeks ago, Jin Chen of Shanghai's Jiaotong University, whose announcements of one of China's first digital signal-processing chips in 2003 stoked patriotic fervour, was condemned by his university for faking research and stealing designs from a foreign company.




J. ANDANSON/SYGMA/CORBIS:Accusations of scientific fraud posted on websites remind some of the posters used to persecute 'government enemies' in the 1970s.

In all three cases, a popular Chinese-language website known as New Threads (http://www.xys.org), which has a reputation for disclosing scientific fraud in China, played a key role in fuelling public outcry.

In the first two cases, postings of the accusations on New Threads led to the Chinese media picking up on the stories. And the website's owner, Shi-min Fang, a biochemist based in San Diego, California, claims he was the first to post the name of the company that supposedly polished and re-labelled another brand's chips for Chen.

The power of the website to implicate scientists in the absence of adequate formal mechanisms of investigation has put it at the centre of concerns over claims of misconduct.

Xin-Yuan Fu, an immunologist at Indiana University in Indianapolis, says it was the Sichuan University case that drove him to write a letter to key science-policy officials, including China's science and technology minister and the head of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, asking them to take action. The letter struck a chord among his peers — within five days of circulating it to other Chinese biologists based in the United States, Fu's letter had collected 120 signatures, including those of two researchers in China. "I was overwhelmed," says Fu.

After noting the need to expose all types of misconduct, the letter focuses on the problem of unfounded allegations, particularly those that attack scientific claims without giving evidence of faulty laboratory procedures. It ends by condemning the tendency to make "personal attacks anonymously in public... in the absence of proper investigation".

Fu says the Sichuan University incident is a case in point. Yuquan Wei, vice-president of the university, published a paper in Nature Medicine in 2000 detailing the use of foreign endothelial cells as a vaccine to prevent tumour growth. The paper claimed success in mice and suggested the technique could work in humans (Nature Med. 6, 1160–1166; 2000).

But Lusheng Si, an immunopathologist at Xi'an Jiaotong University who first came across the paper when reviewing a grant proposal by Wei in 2001, suspected that it contained fabricated data. On 26 March this year, after hearing that Wei was using the paper to request a further large grant, Si attacked the paper on New Threads.

The letter led to a media fury in China and an investigation by Wei's university. Sichuan concluded that Wei had committed no offence, and that the dispute over Wei's research was simply a run-of-the-mill academic disagreement. The media in China has continued to criticize Wei and Sichuan University, but many scientists think Si's attack was irresponsible and based on unsound interpretation of scientific concepts and procedures.

Si contends, for example, that the mouse immune system should respond to all proteins in foreign cells, whereas Wei's paper suggests that immunized mice selectively respond to a few antigens. "This violates a fundamental law of immunology," Si says.

 

AP:Fallen from fame: Jin Chen, creator of a signal-processing chip, was condemned by his university for faking data.

But Lieping Chen, an immunologist at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in Baltimore, Maryland, and a signatory to Fu's letter, disagrees with Si. Chen says that a selective immune response to one or a few foreign proteins is an aspect of well-known phenom–enon known as immunodominance.

Si also questions the number of mice Wei used, estimating this to be around 40,000. "This is too big to believe," he says. Wei, backed by Chen, says Si has miscalculated the number, and that less than 5,000 mice were actually used.

But even those who defend Wei admit that his response hasn't helped. For example, Si claims that Wei has so far refused to release his raw data, which most agree would settle the issue. Wei told Nature, "I did not say I cannot release raw data for inspection", but he has not clarified whether he will make his data available. He has denied all misconduct.

The university's investigation into the matter has failed to convince many that the truth won out, mainly because it lacked transparency. "The recent self-investigation into alleged fraud at Sichuan University is a total joke," says Mu-ming Poo, a neurobiologist at the University of California, Berkeley, and head of the Institute of Neurosciences in Shanghai. Nature's request for details on the university procedure and an introduction to members of the investigation committee was referred to Wei; as Nature went to press he had not provided any information about the investigation.

The recent self-investigation into alleged fraud at Sichuan University is a total joke.

Poo believes the incident is indicative of the fact that most Chinese universities lack the capacity to investigate one of their own. "The outcome is likely to be influenced by the university's own interests, such as protecting its reputation," he says.

Fu's letter, sent on 8 May, calls for greater involvement of higher-level funding bodies such as the science ministry, the Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS) and the Natural Science Foundation of China (NSFC).

These institutions already have investigatory bodies. The CAS established its ethics committee in 1997 and drafted guidelines in 2001. The NSFC committee, established in 1998, says it investigated 445 allegations of misconduct in its first five years (out of an estimated 30,000 projects that it funded during that time). In the most severe cases, the committee indefinitely blocks perpetrators from applying for funds.

But many scientists feel these committees are ineffective, and a lack of confidence in their ability to settle matters is driving those with grievances to publish them on the Internet. For example, Si says he considered sending his complaint to the CAS or to the science ministry, but he was unable to find contact details for either. So he posted his accusation on New Threads instead. Nature's attempts to contact the committees of the CAS and the NSFC were also unsuccessful.

"It is the [effective] absence of such formal mechanisms that makes New Threads important," says Fu. But Fu, a human-rights advocate, is worried that the media frenzy following irresponsible web-based accusations, particularly by those who don't identify themselves, hearkens back to China's 'big letter' posters or 'dazibao'.

These wall-mounted handwritten posters were used to persecute those considered enemies of the government during the Cultural Revolution in the 1970s. "Anyone could write anything, and people would read it and assume it was right," says Chen. "It would be a terrible thing to go through again, in academia."

There's been enough of this 'he said, she said' nonsense.

Fang, who has been widely praised since setting up his website in 2001 for exposing bad science and trying to raise the profile of research ethics in China, defends his postings. He says he only accepts about 10% of submitted letters, and that he only publishes allegations from correspondents who identify themselves to him. He adds that he does some preliminary investigation and sometimes asks outside experts for their opinions.

But several scientists have written to Nature to express concern over how powerful Fang's website has become, saying they are afraid to be named for fear of becoming his enemy.

Ideally, Fu says he would like to see China establish a new agency staffed by experts trained in scientific misconduct that could investigate claims of fraud, akin to the US Office of Research Integrity. That would certainly be necessary to resolve the case of Si versus Wei, says Nature Medicine's editor-in-chief Juan-Carlos Lopez. "There's been enough of this 'he said, she said' nonsense," says Lopez. "It's time for the competent authorities to get involved."

How likely that is to happen is unclear. Fu and his co-signatories have yet to receive any response from the Chinese authorities.

* The original version of this story placed Jin Chen at the wrong university. This has been corrected (1 June 2006). Correction (2 June 2006): Hui Liu was assistant dean of Tsinghua University medical school in Beijing, not vice-dean as originally stated in this article. In paragraph 6, we should not have referred to Jin Chen's company, but rather the company that supposedly does work for Chen.

在5月25日刊出的这篇文章中,作者(David Cyranoski)质疑目前学术打假的公正性,呼吁由中国官方建立公正与权威的学术打假机构。打假英雄方舟子和他无坚不摧的打假网站《新语丝》遭到了点名。

这还不够,在紧接着的下一期(6月1日),《自然》杂志刊出了编者按,把中国的学术腐败,直和南韩相提并论。同样,中国的教育科研机构和《新语丝》打假的公正性,再一次遭到了质疑。

Editorial

Nature 441, 549-550 (1 June 2006) | doi:10.1038/441549b; Published online 31 May 2006

Finding fraud in China

Abstract

As Chinese research expands, who is looking out for faked results?

The investigation of research misconduct is always fraught with difficulty, even if the necessary protocols and experienced expert committees are fully in place. In China, they are not. If the nation is to get to grips with the problem of misconduct as it becomes a substantial scientific power, that situation has to change.

Chinese research agencies do have structures for investigating misconduct allegations, but in the absence of open discussion and independent press scrutiny, few researchers have much faith in them. The rapid and open exchange of information over the Internet has some potential to fill the void, but it also carries risks (see Nature 441, 392–393; 2006). It could readily break down into a dangerous game of unregulated accusation and counter-accusation, shedding no light on actual misconduct.

The power of the Internet in identifying scientific fraud was amply demonstrated last year in the case of Woo Suk Hwang, the discredited South Korean cloning researcher. Online portals discussed suspicious images and data in Hwang's papers, ultimately leading Seoul National University to pursue an investigation that exposed Hwang's fabrications. And Internet postings of allegations that Jin Chen faked digital-processing chips contributed to his dismissal from Shanghai Jiaotong University last month.

The Internet can play a particularly important role in countries such as China and South Korea that do not have adequate systems for investigating misconduct allegations. That isn't to say that countries with systems in place are totally on top of the problem, but at least they have developed some of the institutions and protocols needed to handle it.

Organizations charged with assessing allegations of scientific misconduct do exist in China, and on paper the system appears functional — but there is no evidence that it really works. China lacks an independent press to report on such matters. The very size of the country and subsequent disparate implementation of policies set in Beijing make matters worse.

In addition, the cultural importance of 'saving face' in Chinese society makes the full-frontal public attacks that tend to characterize Western misconduct allegations almost unthinkable. There are no effective provisions to protect whistleblowers, so it is hard to believe that anyone who observes misconduct would summon the courage to report it to the authorities.

There are no effective provisions to protect whistleblowers, so it is hard to believe that anyone observing misconduct would summon the courage to report it.

It is in this climate that New Threads, a Chinese-language Internet site run by a single researcher based in San Diego, has come to play a significant role in the monitoring of scientific conduct. This arrangement is deeply problematic, however.

In China's recent history, 'bottom up' accusations have often been abused by the authorities to persecute perceived enemies of the state. This was especially true during the Cultural Revolution, when simply pasting a poster on the wall calling someone a 'bourgeois' could destroy their livelihood. The threat of innocent people being branded as 'pseudoscientists', either by a jealous rival or by the state, further clouds the misconduct picture in China.

The only real solution to this problem is a great deal more complex than hooking up to an Internet connection. It requires the establishment of independent offices in Chinese research agencies, rather like the inspector general's office at the US National Science Foundation, or the Office of Research Integrity at the US health department. The system can only operate effectively if it offers protection to whistleblowers. It also requires a new generation of scientists to be educated in what constitutes proper scientific conduct. And it needs to ensure that investigations give anyone accused the opportunity to demonstrate their innocence.

China is struggling to come to terms with these kinds of requirements in society at large, as well as within the scientific community. For a multiplicity of reasons — of which the desire for scientific progress is just one — addressing them ought to be the government's greatest priority.

三个星期后,署名方是民(译音)的方舟子,就对《自然》杂志这种指责,做出了如下的反击:

Nature 441, 932(22 June 2006) | doi:10.1038/441932a; Published online 21 June 2006

Misconduct: lack of action provokes web accusations

Shi-min Fang


New Threads Chinese Cultural Society, PO Box 26194, San Diego, California 92196, USA

Sir:

As the webmaster of New Threads (http://www.xys.org) — the website "at the centre of concerns over claims of misconduct", according to your Special Report "Named and shamed" (Nature 441, 392–393; 2006) — I cannot agree with your comment that "some fear persecution reminiscent of that used in the Cultural Revolution".

The Cultural Revolution was started by Chairman Mao in 1966 and formally ended with his death in 1976. Although 30 years have passed, the memory of this calamity is still vivid in many Chinese minds — it is understandable that some fear the tragedy might someday recur. But it is ridiculous to compare free speech on the Internet to the violence of the Cultural Revolution, which was controlled by a dictator, allowed for no freedom and included governmental persecution of 'class enemies'. I find it ironic that 120 Chinese-American scientists and self-appointed human-rights advocates have signed an open letter appealing to the Chinese government to suppress media and public opinions: they still need to learn what free speech and human rights mean.

I agree that China should establish an official channel to investigate allegations of misconduct. In fact, I made this suggestion as early as 2001, in a speech to the Chinese students and scholars association at the University of California, San Diego (see http://www.xys.org/xys/netters/Fang-Zhouzi/science/yanjiang.txt). But before this channel exists, and to make sure it functions properly after it is established, free press and free speech are indispensable.

在6月21号给《自然》杂志编辑部的来信中,方舟子不同意《自然》杂志新闻报道中120名海外华人学者和自封的人权斗士对他和《新语丝》的指责,认为他们还需要学习什么是言论自由和人权。但方舟子同意建立官方打假机构,并声称他是最早在2001年就在加州大学的一场中文演说中作出过这样的建议。

科罗拉多大学的黄征(译音),也对《自然》杂志特别新闻报道和编者按中谴责中国学术打假时使用的措词,表示了抗议:

Nature 441, 932(22 June 2006) | doi:10.1038/441932b; Published online 21 June 2006

Misconduct: exposure is not like Cultural Revolution

Zheng Huang

Radiation Oncology Department, University of Colorado at Denver and Health Sciences Center, Aurora, Colorado 80045, USA

Sir:

Your Special Report (Nature 441, 392–393; 2006) and Editorial "Finding fraud in China" (Nature 441, 549–550; 2006) express deep concern about accusations of scientific misconduct in China. You rightly point out that it should be the government's greatest priority to crack down on scientific misconduct, if it is rife.

The New Threads website covers wide areas such as literature and popular science. It is well known for posting accusations of all types of scientific misconduct, and providing a forum for people to discuss their concerns. There are good reasons for the popularity of the website among intellectuals and the general public. It is the motivation of those condemning it that needs to be questioned.

It is misleading to suggest that high-profile researchers could be persecuted through accusations made against them on the Internet, or to compare this to the Cultural Revolution. I witnessed the violence of the Cultural Revolution in my childhood. My parents were abused by the Red Guard because of their family, education and professional background. I cried when I saw crosses marking their names in posters and cartoons.

The Cultural Revolution was a mass movement organized by the country's leader to crack down on his opponents. New Threads is just a platform without any official power: openness is the key to its success. It has become a portal for the grass roots who are ignored by official channels, such as university authorities, when they report misconduct. Internet debate and the resultant public attention can act as a warning to people attempting to violate research ethics. This is nothing like the horror of the Cultural Revolution.

文学城的网友化学键,也就是被方舟子在互联网上公布了真实姓名的吴国胜(译音),对方舟子的辩解,提出了反证:

Nature 442, 132(13 July 2006) | doi:10.1038/442132a; Published online 12 July 2006

Misconduct: forum should not be used to settle scores

Guosheng Wu


700 Lower State Road, North Wales, Pennsylvania 19454, USA

Sir:

Although China is developing its science and technology at an unprecedented speed, scientific misconduct is a serious issue, as you have highlighted in your Special Report "Named and shamed" (Nature 441, 392–393; 2006)

Shi-Min Fang, the webmaster of New Threads (http://www.xys.org), has defended, in Correspondence (Nature 441, 932; 2006), this website's role in disclosing scientific misconduct on occasions when the authorities have ignored whistleblowers.

Like many other Chinese scientists working overseas, I care very much about scientific misconduct in China. However, I have also been concerned for a long time about the quality of articles published on New Threads. Often, I find that there are few facts and little investigation behind the accusations, and that many articles are mixed with assumptions and personal attacks on named scientific researchers.

One such example is that of Hualiang Jiang, a principal investigator working at the Shanghai Institute of Materia Medica. Because I work in a similar field, I am familiar with Jiang's work and publications, although I have never met him. New Threads contains several articles (urls provided) attacking Jiang personally, using many insulting words such as "idiot". It seems that some of the articles were written by someone who may have been an unsuccessful job candidate at Jiang's institute.

Disclosing scientific misconduct is not simply about free speech, as claimed by Fang. It is also about being professional, objective and serious. Only verified facts should be published on the website, if it is claiming to monitor incidents of scientific misconduct. It should not be used for unsubstantiated attacks in the name of free speech, not only because of the personal and professional effects on the scientists concerned, but also because readers, especially young students, could be misled.

另外,国内的学者王奇志(译音),也不甘落后,对如何办好学术打假发表了意见:

Nature 442, 132(13 July 2006) | doi:10.1038/442132b; Published online 12 July 2006

Misconduct: China needs university ethics courses

Qizhi Wang

Department of Mechanics, College of Architecture and Environment, Sichuan University, Chengdu, Sichuan 610065, China

Sir:

Your Special Report "Named and shamed" (Nature 441, 392–393; 2006) and Editorial "Finding fraud in China" (Nature 441, 549–550; 2006) report that scientific misconduct has become rampant in China, especially in universities. I would like to add my view to those of previous correspondents (Nature 441, 932; 2006).

Misconduct is hampering the sound development of science in the nation's higher-education system. If scientific misconduct cases are not handled by the university (or other concerned authority), and much-needed outside supervision is not available, then each occasion that comes to light damages the academic reputation of the university concerned, the whistleblower and the person accused.

Unfortunately, serious and justified investigations of suspected fraud have been largely ignored by China's universities, with the exceptions of the prestigious Tsinghua University and Shanghai Jiaotong University, each of which has recently dismissed a professor (returned from abroad in each case) for fabricating research achievements or results. However, details of these investigations have not been disclosed, so other universities cannot learn from them.

Obviously, it is the university involved in a fraud case — not the Ministry of Education, the media, websites, journals or newspapers — that has the power to dismiss or demote the accused, if guilty. A mechanism is needed to deal with such eventualities.

To cope with embarrassing situations such as those currently being highlighted in the media, I suggest that editorials and articles on the subject in science journals such as Nature and Science should be used as materials for teaching a course of research ethics to students in China's universities. Access to case studies being taught in scientific ethics courses elsewhere would also be valuable. Our universities should play a key part in fighting scientific misconduct, and every honest Chinese professor should make a contribution to such courses as part of providing a complete university education.

一时间,战火纷纷,美国的权威杂志上,充满了黄皮肤的中国人。

就连台湾驻伦敦的外交代表陈麦克,也浑水摸鱼,在《自然》杂志上发表声明,抗议《自然》杂志发表的一幅地图中,把台湾染成了和大陆一样的黄颜色!

Nature 442, 132(13 July 2006) | doi:10.1038/442132d; Published online 12 July 2006

Speaking for Taiwan about colours, maps and politics

Michael Chen

Taipei Representative Office in the United Kingdom, 50 Grosvenor Gardens, London SW1W 0EB, UK


好在旅居伦敦的大陆学者孙正领(译音),立即也在《自然》杂志上进行了精彩的反击:

Nature 442, 244(20 July 2006) | doi:10.1038/442244c; Published online 19 July 2006

Same colour, many different countries

Zhen-Ling Sun

Department of Animal and Plant Sciences, Alfred Denny Building, University of Sheffield, Western Bank, Sheffield S10 2TN, UK

Sir:

Michael Chen, in Correspondence (Nature 442, 132; 2006), raised a question about the colours used in a map with the News Feature "Forward planning" (Nature 440, 987–989; 2006). He was concerned that showing both the People's Republic of China and Taiwan as yellow would make people think that they comprised one country. However, all the countries shown as having proposed repositories for nuclear waste are coloured yellow, including Sweden, Finland, the United Kingdom and France. This certainly does not mean that these pairs of neighbouring countries have been united into one.

According to the World Nuclear Association (http://www.world-nuclear.org), Taiwan has nuclear power reactors in operation, and therefore it should not be excluded from the issue discussed in the News Feature. I can see nothing wrong with the colours used in the map. Being simple and focused, it fulfilled its purpose.

哎吆额的娘哦,原来在《NATURE》上发表一篇文章,竟然比TNND登一篇广告还容易!

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阅读 ()评论 (14)
评论
贫嘴方大民 回复 悄悄话 新语丝的活动越来越象文化大革命. 不是吗,君不见:

以方是民(和我还一家,晦气,尽管是500年的事)为伟大领袖,以领袖的铁哥们HunHunSheng等人为网络打手(24小时轮番上阵时刻检察一切腐败的ID),正在发动一起声势浩大的运动。

时隔40年,阶级斗争重新在华人世界启动,一时间引发国际传媒如自然杂志的广泛关注,新华社似乎也不甘落后,以领袖夫人刘菊花为代表正在背后领导新华社准备和自然杂志决一雌雄,看看谁的人多谁的力量大。。。 。。。
席琳 回复 悄悄话 不用客气,没有关系的了。事情是越辩越明,越描越黑吗。不过动辄就被人拉了上法庭,也不象是正人君子之所为。

做事谦虚一点,在取证和用词上谨慎一点,应该是没有坏处的。
化学键 回复 悄悄话 方 + 舟 + 子

怎么这个名字都被屏蔽掉了 , 怕啊 :-)

Sorry, Xi-Lin, I used too much of your space
化学键 回复 悄悄话 如果是简单的代数问题 , 那还用算吗 , 肯定是的人多 吗 。

可以建议教育部写进小学一年级算术教材 , 毕竟学术腐败应该 从娃娃抓起 。

补充 , 我还没有说过这件事是谁对 , 因为我没有掌握必要的知识和信息, 更不可能盲目地去签名 。
YXWZ 回复 悄悄话 三百来人签署此信还不够,难道要搞全民公诀不成? 肖传国也征集封公开信试试? 新语丝每天有四五十万人次的阅读量还不够? 三百五十五比一百二十,简单算术都不会还比较分析. 和傅新元两封公开信有可比性吗? 和肖传国两封公开信那才叫有可比性! 要不试试?
氢键 回复 悄悄话 http:///hero/2006/xys/88_1.shtml

徐之阗:对和傅新元两封公开信的初步比较分析

支持率: 

根据自述,新语丝每天有四五十万人次的阅读量。相信对新语丝感兴趣的人,大都是所谓知识分子。 遗憾的是,在大张旗鼓喧嚷后, 一个星期下来 这次仅仅有三百来人签署此信,签名的比率千分之一都不到,可见的实际支持率了。这也证明了,大多数去浏览新语丝的人士,是报着看八卦新闻的心理,去看热闹的。 

最让人惊讶的是,的公开的铁杆支持者中,最有知名度的所谓“知识分子” 邹承鲁和何祚庥,都拒绝在此公开信中签名。对此,想必这些已经签名的人对此结果会大失所望,甚至会有被弃置的感觉吧。

为什么邹承鲁和何祚庥都拒绝签署此公开信?邹承鲁先生和三百多位签名者的绝大部分相比,专业上应更有权威,为何不签名?这已经很说明问题。 

与此相比,傅新元的公开信,仅仅在内部,通过电子邮件寄给他的生物学同事,收信人仅仅有三百多位科学家,其中一百二十位联署,收信者和签名者的比率超过三分之一。这在任何征集签名信的事例中,是非常成功的。   

专业性和权威性:

的公开信牵涉到一个很专业的问题。有关专家的意见应当是一言九鼎。很显然,的公开信签名者中,几乎没有任何有关此案件的医学和法律专业的人士,大都是些基本群众。不可否认,大部分签名者的动机是支持科学打假。他们是出于义愤,而不是基于对专业问题的切实了解而签名。这也说明了已完全失去了有关专业人士的支持。 

与此不同的是,傅新元的公开信纯粹是专业人士和众多权威科学家的的签署。因此影响力不可同日而语。 

民主过程:

的公开信是一人指导发令,大家盲从的过程。对公开信不可有任何质疑。而傅新元的公开信是在科学同事之间,经过民主讨论,反复酝酿修改,最后成型。 

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化学键 回复 悄悄话 YXWZ,

法 院 如 果 有 不 公 , 最 理 性 的 办 法 是 向 更 高 一 级 法 院 上 诉 , 而 不 是 发 动 不 一 定 知 道 全 部 事 实 的 人 民 和 国 内(新 华 社 ,人 民 网, CCTV 等) 和 国 外(xys.org) 的 媒 体 搞 声 势 浩 荡 的 群 众 运 动;

谁 敢 说 大 话 , 最 高 人 民 法 院 也 会 偏 袒 一 个 学 术 腐 败 分 子 ?

他 也 可 以 向 科 协 , 科 学 院 发 公 开 信 , 可 以 向 国 际 媒 体 如 Science, Nature 撰 稿。

难 道 要 搞 全 民 公 诀 不 成 ?

再 说 , 看 看 那 些 签 名 的 单 子 , 我 真 的 很 "汗"?
还 想 想 在 在 海 外 有 多 少 华 人 知 识 分 子 ? 看 到 那 封 签 名 信 的 人 有 多 少 ? 光 是 新 语 丝 的 固 定 订 阅 户 头 就 不 下 ...? 你 还 是 自 己 去 问 方 吧 . 或 者 数 数 xys forum 上 的 ID 数 量 .

还 瞎 搬 运 科 学 "霸 王" 邹 承 鲁 来 压 人 啊 ?

(1)他 的 那 个 采 访 稿 怎 么 批 评 肖 或 者 裘 了 ? 我 的 理 解 能 力 不 至 于 那 么 差 .

(2) 他 是 个 八 十 多 岁 的 人 , 难 道 学 术 腐 败 也 要 一 个 长 年 霸 道 的 老 人 来 专 政 ?

(3)关 于 (2), 可 以 参 考 大 量 的 网 络 资 料 , 我 自 己 也 亲 耳 从 很 多 生 物 行 业 的 朋 友 说 过 。

想 起 年 初 , 面 对 我 的 批 评 , 他 要 找 说 法 , 就 可 以 把 我 告 上 公 堂 了。 对 他 的 批 评 怎 么 就 成 了 诬 蔑 了? 我 就 那 么 恶 劣 ? 先 找 我 要 实 名 , 然 后 不 经 允 许 就 把 我 的 实 名 公 布 于 众 , 以 为 我 就 那 么 容 易 臭 ?! 我 告 诉 他 我 学 习 和 工 作 过 的 所 有 单 位 , 可 以 去 找 我 的 任 何 可 以 打 假 的 资 源 , 怎 么 就 是 不 开 打 ? 还 发 动 朋 友 和 网 友 对 我 搞 攻 击 , 删 我 的 帖 子 , 封 我 的 ID, 封 我 的 IP... ...

而 对 于 我 在 Nature 的 一 篇 短 文 怎 么 没 有 任 何 勇 气 写 篇 文 章 来 讨 伐 一 下 ? 这 种 事 情 对 他 来 说 , 我 可 从 未 听 过 啊 ?

极 其 罕 见 的 "沉 默 是 金"!

到 是 古 人 云 , 浪 子 回 头 金 不 换。 他 还 年 轻 , 改 掉 恶 习 还 是 可 以 继 续 为 社 会 做 贡 献 的 。
YXWZ 回复 悄悄话 对院士候选人肖传国进行质疑,是正当的学术批评与舆论监督,完全符合中国科学院公布院士候选人名单以加强社会各界对院士增选工作的监督的目的.肖既然想当院士就有责任回应质疑.斥诸于司法本身就是一件很可笑的事。如果法院能够依法判案,这事情本身不一定是坏事.但是,该判决枉顾事实, 偏袒一方. 国内的事情,真是无法用理性去分析。真的就没有道德廉耻了.
席琳 回复 悄悄话 如果学术研究上的问题,动不动就要上法庭来解决,那就真是中国学术的悲哀了。问题就是,那些法官和律师,懂得多少科学?

美国是一个极端重视法律的社会,公民以及企业和学术界的官司也从来没有中断过,大都是涉及环境保护和企业及私人利益的。可是没有见到,因某某科学家因为受到了学术上的诽谤和人格上的侮辱,而上了法庭的。

照常说,有理不怕言高,脚整不怕鞋歪。事关学术道德和人品,这原告人和被告人,诽谤的和被诽谤的,竟然还都理直气壮,兴师动众,大张旗鼓,大肆宣扬。实在是有一点儿滑稽。
化学键 回复 悄悄话 法 院 的 介 入 是 因 为 涉 及 公 民 的 权 利 , 即 肖 传 国 向 法 院 起 诉 方 舟 子 侵 犯 了 他 的 名 誉 。

如 果 法 院 能 够 依 法 判 案 , 这 事 情 本 身 不 一 定 是 坏 事 。 如 果 方 不 服 法 院 裁 决 , 更 好 的 办 法 是 向 更 高 一 级 法 院 上 述 , 双 方 都 可 以 依 此 类 推 。 值 得 无 法 再 打 官 司 了 。 最 后 还 是 不 满 , 那 么 可 以 更 多 地 让 媒 体 介 入 , 鼓 励 法 律 专 家 进 行 分 析 , 甚 至 是 人 大 修 改 法 律 。

另 外 , 法 律 应 该 参 考 如 中 科 院 , 科 协 等 学 术 权 威 机 构 的 意 见 。

到 目 前 为 止 , 所 看 到 的 是 方 舟 子 以 及 他 的 网 站 大 量 的 一 面 之 词 , 很 多 言 论 本 身 都 可 能 已 经 违 法, 比 如 公 开 地 声 称 江 汉 法 院 的 法 官 吕瑛如 何 违 法 地 判 案 , 她/他 的 上 司 如 何腐 败 等 等 。 这 和 文 革 的 大 字 报 还 有 多 少 区 别 ? 这 种 观 念 还 打 什 么 官 司? 直 接 说 没 法 打 就 得 了 。

下 面 这 个 呼 吁 全 世 界 华 人 学 者 用 实 名 来 声 援 方 的 , 竟 然 得 到 人 民 网 的 默 许 。 人 民 网 是 否 应 该 先 看 一 些 中 国 新 闻 法 是 怎 么 写 的, 而 不 是 另 一 方 面 压 着 我 的 文 稿 一 直 不 发 , 连 个 回 音 都 没 有 。 而 Nature 杂 志 的 两 位 编 辑在 收 到 来 稿 之 后 很 快 地 就 答 复 了 , 而 且 是 那 么 的 礼 貌 , 专 业 ... ... 国 内 的 事 情 , 真 是 无 法 用 理 性 去 分 析 。

http://scitech.people.com.cn/GB/4660757.html
席琳 回复 悄悄话 谢谢化学键提供的联接,我对具体谁输谁赢没有很大的兴趣,只是觉得是另外一场闹剧而已。司法干预学术,学术斥诸于司法,本身就是一件很可笑的事。

中国的学问人,真的就没有道德廉耻了么?真的只有上法庭一条道吗?有SCIENCE,也有NATURE,学术上的纠纷,大家清者自清,浊者自浊,关法官和律师什么事!

化学键 回复 悄悄话 席琳, 我 的 博 客 收 集 了 一 些 媒 体 的 内 容 , 也 许 你 会 有 兴 趣 , 也 欢 迎 指 正 。

http://blog.wenxuecity.com/blogview.php?date=200608&postID=3109
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