杰克·沙利文 制裁俄罗斯彻底失败

文字记录：杰克·沙利文在“与玛格丽特·布伦南一起面对全国”节目

2024 年 11 月 10 日
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jake-sullivan-national-security-adviser-face-the-nation-transcript-11-10-2024/

2024 年 11 月 10 日/美国东部时间下午 1:32/哥伦比亚广播公司新闻

沙利文：拜登呼吁继续向乌克兰提供援助

国家安全顾问表示，拜登将呼吁在其任期结束后继续向乌克兰提供援助 08:09

以下是 2024 年 11 月 10 日播出的“与玛格丽特·布伦南一起面对全国”节目中对白宫国家安全顾问杰克·沙利文的采访记录。

玛格丽特·布伦南：我们回来采访白宫国家安全顾问杰克·沙利文。杰克，很高兴你能来。

杰克·沙利文：谢谢你的邀请。

玛格丽特·布伦南：我们知道拜登总统和当选总统特朗普将于周三在椭圆形办公室会面。世界各地都发生了很多火灾。拜登总统想要传达什么重点和信息？

杰克·沙利文：嗯，第一个也是最重要的信息是拜登总统致力于和平移交权力，并致力于负责任地从一位总统移交给下一位总统，这是我们国家过去 240 年来的最佳传统。然后他们将讨论最重要的问题，包括国内和外交政策问题。包括欧洲、亚洲和中东正在发生的事情。总统将有机会向特朗普总统解释他如何看待事物，他们的立场，并与特朗普总统讨论特朗普总统在就职后如何考虑解决这些问题。

玛格丽特·布伦南：好吧，我们来谈谈乌克兰，因为我们刚刚从哈格蒂参议员那里听到了共和党那部分人目前的世界观。我们知道那里的战争正在扩大。朝鲜军队似乎已经参战。所有这些对手都全力以赴，希望俄罗斯在那里获胜。在剩下的 70 天内，你能做些什么来改变当地的情况，或者说，让特朗普的战略失效，可以这么说吗？

杰克·沙利文：好吧，你看，我们的方法和过去两年半一样，那就是让乌克兰在战场上占据最强的地位，这样它最终在谈判桌上也能占据最强的地位。为了维护自己的主权和领土完整，乌克兰应该自己决定何时以及如何走上谈判桌。美国和我们建立的国家联盟应该继续向乌克兰提供防御俄罗斯野蛮侵略的手段。

玛格丽特·布伦南：你们还有 60 亿美元，已经——

杰克·沙利文：几个月前泽连斯基总统访问华盛顿时，拜登总统明确表示，我们将按时全额使用国会提供给我们的所有资源。这意味着到 1 月 20 日，我们将向乌克兰提供国会批准的全部资源和援助。当然，拜登总统将有机会在未来 70 天内向国会和新一届政府表明，美国不应放弃乌克兰，放弃乌克兰意味着欧洲更加不稳定。最终，正如日本首相所说，如果我们放弃欧洲的乌克兰，美国对亚洲盟友的承诺问题将会增加。

玛格丽特·布伦南：你的意思是拜登总统将在卸任前要求国会批准更多资金用于乌克兰？

杰克·沙利文：听着，我来这里不是为了提出具体的立法提案。拜登总统将提出，在他的任期结束后，我们确实需要持续为乌克兰提供资源，因为无论战场或谈判桌上发生什么，对乌克兰的威胁仍然存在，美国不应该放弃对乌克兰或对我们在欧洲和亚洲联合保卫乌克兰的 50 个国家的承诺。

玛格丽特·布伦南：所以美国情报部门评估认为，俄罗斯在这次选举中偏袒唐纳德·特朗普，俄罗斯以相当戏剧性和明显的方式干涉了这些假视频。他们这样做会付出什么后果？

杰克·沙利文：首先，我们不要忘记，我们目前正在以人们能想象到的最激烈、最彻底的方式帮助乌克兰在乌克兰与俄罗斯作战。因此，我们已经采取了大量措施来让俄罗斯付出代价。我们还通过了对俄罗斯实施的最严厉的制裁，这是我们见过的针对世界主要经济体的制裁——

玛格丽特·布伦南：哈格蒂参议员说，即使受到这些制裁，俄罗斯仍然表现良好。

杰克·沙利文：首先，您可以从许多不同方面看到，无论是俄罗斯的通货膨胀，还是他们的能力

随着时间的推移，俄罗斯的经济、技术、投资新能源的能力将逐渐增长，随着时间的推移，俄罗斯的前景越来越暗淡，制裁措施也越来越严厉，显然，制裁并没有阻止俄罗斯今天在乌克兰开展军事行动，但却为乌克兰——俄罗斯的未来——描绘了一幅更加黑暗的图景。

玛格丽特·布伦南：你知道俄罗斯给了朝鲜领导人金正恩什么，以换取他派往乌克兰战场作战的士兵吗？

杰克·沙利文：我们不确定，坦率地说，我认为弗拉基米尔·普京也不确定。我认为他可能还没有决定未来要为朝鲜做些什么。但我要告诉你，金正恩预计他将得到一些重要的东西，可能是俄罗斯的军事和技术支持——

玛格丽特·布伦南：用于其核计划？

杰克·沙利文：这是完全有可能的。我不能确切地说会发生什么，但我们已经听到俄罗斯人站出来表示，今天应该以不同于五年或十年前的方式看待朝鲜的核计划。因此，对俄罗斯和朝鲜之间关系的担忧是非常现实的，也是自由世界所有国家都需要关注的事情。

玛格丽特·布伦南：内塔尼亚胡总理说，他过去几天与唐纳德·特朗普进行了三次通话。以色列总统伊萨克·赫尔佐格即将访问白宫。这是刚刚宣布的。在拜登政府执政的最后几天，是什么让你认为本杰明·内塔尼亚胡会同意在加沙实现和平或同意在黎巴嫩实现和平，而不是为新总统保留政治资本？

杰克·沙利文：内塔尼亚胡总理将做出决定，并将就他的决定发表讲话。这就是我所看到的。首先，在加沙，今天，阻碍停火和人质协议的并不是以色列。而是哈马斯。以色列表示，它准备对一些人质实施临时停火，然后在此基础上尝试让所有人质回家——

玛格丽特·布伦南：你知道吗——

杰克·沙利文：——哈马斯说不

玛格丽特·布伦南：——哈格蒂参议员与哈马斯谈论过这个问题？

杰克·沙利文：我不知道他发表的具体声明。我要告诉你的是，无论哈马斯公开说什么，他们向调解人传达的信息都是“不，我们目前不会达成停火和人质协议”。因此，我们需要做的是让世界其他国家继续向哈马斯施加压力，让他们坐下来，在加沙达成协议，因为以色列政府已经表示准备朝这个方向迈出暂时的一步。然后谈到黎巴嫩问题，我们一直在积极与以色列政府进行讨论。这些讨论应该闭门进行，但我们确实相信，以色列政府在某个时候希望达成一项让其公民回国的协议。我不认为以色列政府这样做是为了美国政治。我认为以色列这样做是为了确保以色列的安全，我预计在未来几周内，我们将看到在这方面取得进展。

玛格丽特·布伦南：你会追究以色列的责任吗？因为国务卿和国防部长已经发信表示，他们没有允许提供应有的援助，而且可能迫使加沙北部的人们流离失所。关于这个计划，您说这基本上是一条红线。

杰克·沙利文：所以基本上，您从奥斯汀国务卿和布林肯国务卿那里看到的是一封致以色列同行的信，信中说，这是我们希望您采取的一系列措施，我们将根据您在这些措施方面取得的进展来衡量您。本周，我们将对他们取得的进展做出判断。然后，奥斯汀国务卿、布林肯国务卿和总统将对我们采取的应对措施做出判断，我不会提前透露。

玛格丽特·布伦南：很快，习近平主席和拜登总统将在未来几天的峰会上坐在同一个地方。总统会就这场被称为“盐台风”的对电信公司的普遍和大规模黑客攻击与他对质吗？

杰克·沙利文：拜登总统每次见到中国国家主席习近平时，都会和他谈论网络间谍活动和网络攻击——

玛格丽特·布伦南：这是一次重大攻击。

杰克·沙利文：是的，这是一次绝对重大的攻击。这是联邦调查局、国土安全部和整个国家安全机构正在大力调查的事情。当然，未来几周，这将是每一位美国官员和每一位中国官员的议程。

玛格丽特·布伦南

杰克·沙利文，世界上发生了很多事情。

感谢您前来与我们交谈。我们很快就会回来，为大家带来更多面向全国的内容。

文字记录：参议员比尔·哈格蒂 (Bill Hagerty) 谈“与玛格丽特·布伦南 (Margaret Brennan) 一起面对全国”，2024 年 11 月 10 日

文字记录：凯伦·皮尔斯 (Karen Pierce) 谈“与玛格丽特·布伦南 (Margaret Brennan) 一起面对全国”，2024 年 11 月 10 日

“与玛格丽特·布伦南 (Margaret Brennan) 一起面对全国”的完整文字记录，2024 年 11 月 10 日

文字记录：尼尔·卡什卡里 (Neel Kashkari) 谈“与玛格丽特·布伦南 (Margaret Brennan) 一起面对全国”，2024 年 11 月 10 日

文字记录：众议员罗·卡纳 (Ro Khanna) 谈“与玛格丽特·布伦南 (Margaret Brennan) 一起面对全国”，2024 年 11 月 10 日

文字记录：参议员比尔·哈格蒂 (Bill Hagerty) 谈“与玛格丽特·布伦南 (Margaret Brennan) 一起面对全国”，2024 年 11 月 10 日

文字记录：凯伦·皮尔斯 (Karen Pierce) 谈“与玛格丽特·布伦南 (Margaret Brennan) 一起面对全国”，2024 年 11 月10，2024
2024 年 11 月 10 日“与玛格丽特·布伦南一起面对全国”完整记录
记录：尼尔·卡什卡里谈“与玛格丽特·布伦南一起面对全国”，2024 年 11 月 10 日

Transcript: Jake Sullivan on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jake-sullivan-national-security-adviser-face-the-nation-transcript-11-10-2024/

November 10, 2024 / 1:32 PM EST / CBS News

Sullivan: Biden to call for Ukraine aid to continue

National security adviser says Biden will call for Ukraine aid to continue beyond his term 08:09

The following is a transcript of an interview with White House National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" that aired on Nov. 10, 2024.

 

MARGARET BRENNAN: We're back with White House National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan. Jake, good to have you here.

JAKE SULLIVAN: Thanks for having me.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So we know President Biden and President elect Trump will meet in the Oval Office on Wednesday. There are a lot of fires around the world. What is it that President Biden wants to deliver in terms of a focus and message? 

JAKE SULLIVAN: Well, the first and most important message will be that President Biden is committed to the peaceful transfer of power and to a responsible handoff from one president to the next, which is in the best tradition of our country and has been for the last 240 years. And then they will go through the top issues, both domestic and foreign policy issues. Including what is happening in Europe and Asia and the Middle East. And the President will have the chance to explain to President Trump how he sees things, where they stand and and talk to President Trump about how President Trump is thinking about taking on these- these issues when he takes office.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, let's go to Ukraine, because we just heard from Senator Hagerty that world view from that portion of the Republican Party right now. We know the war is expanding there. The North Korean troops seem to have entered the fight. You have all these adversaries all-in on Russia winning there. What can you do in the remaining 70 days to sort of change what's happening on the ground, or Trump-proof the strategy, so to speak?

JAKE SULLIVAN: Well, look, our approach remains the same as it's been for the last two and a half years, which is to put Ukraine in the strongest possible position on the battlefield, so that it is ultimately in the strongest possible position at the negotiating table. And it should be up to Ukraine to decide, for its own sovereignty and its own territorial integrity, when and how it goes to the negotiating table. It should be up to the United States and a coalition of nations that we have built to continue to supply Ukraine with the means to defend itself against brutal Russian aggression.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You've got like, what, $6 billion in money left that's already--

JAKE SULLIVAN: --And President Biden made clear when President Zelensky was here in Washington a couple of months ago that we would spend all of the resources that were provided to us by the Congress on time and in full. Meaning that by January 20, we will have sent the full amount of resources and aid to Ukraine the Congress has authorized. And of course, President Biden will have the opportunity over the next 70 days to make the case to the Congress and to the incoming administration that the United States should not walk away from Ukraine, that walking away from Ukraine means more instability in Europe. And ultimately, as the Japanese Prime Minister said, If we walk away from Ukraine in Europe, the question about America's commitment to our allies in Asia will grow. 

MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you mean President Biden is going to ask Congress to pass more money for Ukraine before he leaves office?

JAKE SULLIVAN: Look, I'm not here to put forward a specific legislative proposal. President Biden will make the case that we do need ongoing resources for Ukraine beyond the end of his term, because the threat to Ukraine will remain no matter what exactly happens on the battlefield or at the negotiating table, and the United States should not walk away from its commitment, either to Ukraine or to 50 nations that we have rallied in defense of Ukraine in both Europe and Asia.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So U.S. intelligence assessed that Russia favored Donald Trump in this election, that Russia interfered in a fairly dramatic and visible fashion with these fake videos. What consequence are they going to pay, if any, for doing that?

JAKE SULLIVAN: Well, first, let's not forget that we are currently helping Ukraine fight Russia in Ukraine in the most dramatic and full throated way one could- could imagine. So we are already doing a substantial number of things to impose costs on Russia. We have also passed the most sweeping sanctions on Russia that we have seen against a major economy in the world-- 

MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Hagerty was saying it's- Russia's doing fine even with those sanctions. 

JAKE SULLIVAN: Well, first of all, you can see in many different ways, whether it's inflation in Russia, whether it's their ability over time to actually grow their economy, their technology, their capacity to invest in new sources of energy going down the line, that the picture for Russia looks increasingly bleak as time goes on, and that the sanctions are biting, they have not stopped, obviously, Russia from being able to carry out its military operations in Ukraine today, but they have painted a darker picture for Ukraine- for Russia tomorrow.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you know what Russia is giving North Korea's Kim Jong Un in exchange for the men he is sending to fight on the battlefield in Ukraine?

JAKE SULLIVAN: We don't know for sure, and frankly, I think Vladimir Putin doesn't know for sure. I think he probably hasn't decided exactly what he's going to do for North Korea on a going forward basis. But I will tell you this, Kim Jong Un expects that he's going to get something significant, probably in the form of military and technology support from Russia-- 

MARGARET BRENNAN: For its nuclear program? 

JAKE SULLIVAN: And that's a distinct possibility. I can't say exactly what will happen, but we have already heard the Russians come out and say that North Korea's nuclear program should be looked at differently today than it was five or ten years ago. So the concern about the relationship between Russia and North Korea, in both directions, is very real and something that all of the nations of the free world need to pay attention to.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So Prime Minister Netanyahu said he spoke to Donald Trump three times in the past few days. The Israeli President Isaac Herzog is coming to the White House. That was just announced. What makes you think in these final days of the Biden administration that Benjamin Netanyahu would agree to peace in Gaza or agree to peace in Lebanon and not hold on to that political capital for the new president?

JAKE SULLIVAN: Prime Minister Netanyahu will make his decisions, and he'll speak to his decisions. Here's what I see. First in Gaza, it really, today, is not Israel that is standing in the way of a cease fire and hostage deal. It is Hamas. Israel has said it's prepared to do a temporary cease fire for a number of hostages and then try to build on that to get all of the hostages home-- 

MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you know what--

JAKE SULLIVAN: --Hamas has said no

MARGARET BRENNAN: --Senator Hagerty was talking about on that with Hamas?

JAKE SULLIVAN: I don't know about the particular statement he made. What I will tell you is, whatever Hamas is saying publicly, what they are communicating to the mediators is no, we will not do a cease fire and hostage deal at this time. So what we need to do is get the rest of the world to continue to increase pressure on Hamas to come to the table, to do a deal in Gaza, because the Israeli government has said it's prepared to take a temporary step in that direction. And then when it comes to Lebanon, we have been actively engaged in discussions with the Israeli government. Those should remain behind closed doors, but we do believe that at some point the Israeli government wants to do a deal that gets its citizens back home. I don't think it's doing that deal for American politics. I think it's doing that deal to try to secure Israel, and I expect that in the coming weeks, we will see progress in that direction. 

MARGARET BRENNAN: Will you hold Israel to account? Because the Secretaries of State and Defense have sent letters saying that they're not allowing in aid to the degree they should, and that there are possibly forced displacements from Northern Gaza. On this program, you have said that was essentially a red line.

JAKE SULLIVAN: So basically what you have seen from Secretary Austin and Secretary Blinken is a letter to their Israeli counterparts that says, here is a set of steps we expect you to take, and we are going to measure you against the progress you are making towards those steps. This week, we will make our judgments about what kind of progress they have made. And then Secretary Austin, Secretary Blinken, the President will make judgments about what we do in response, and I'm not going to get ahead of that.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Very quickly, President Xi and President Biden will be in the same place at these summits in the next few days. Will the President confront him about this pervasive and massive hacking of telecom companies known as 'Salt Typhoon?' 

JAKE SULLIVAN: President Biden, every time he sees his Chinese counterpart, President Xi, speaks to him about cyber-enabled espionage, about cyber attacks-- 

MARGARET BRENNAN: This is a significant attack. 

JAKE SULLIVAN: Yes, it is. It is an absolutely significant attack. It's something that the FBI, our Department of Homeland Security, our entire national security enterprise is digging into in a big way. And of course, it will be on the agenda between every American official and every Chinese official in the weeks ahead.

MARGARET BRENNAN  

Jake Sullivan, a lot happening in the world. Thank you for coming in and talking to us. We'll be right back with a lot more Face the Nation.

 

TRanscript: Sen. Bill Hagerty on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024

Transcript: Karen Pierce on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024

Full transcript of "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024

Transcript: Neel Kashkari on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024

Transcript: Rep. Ro Khanna on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024

Transcript: Sen. Bill Hagerty on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024

Transcript: Karen Pierce on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024

Full transcript of "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024

Transcript: Neel Kashkari on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," Nov. 10, 2024