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最近圣地亚哥的耶鲁女博士死在警察的枪口下。这件事本来不是什么大事,但却导致了女博士死亡,这样的结果的却是令人费解。
首先,警察的行为是否职业是个很严重的问题。没有法院的授权,警察是不能随便入屋搜索的。可以说,没有这个授权,你甚至可以忽略警察的敲门。警察也不笨,他们知道没有授权是不能随便入屋搜索,但他们会去敲门问话,获取消息。美国对私人领地不得随意侵犯是非常严肃的。陌生人不经过同意,擅自入屋被屋主打死无罪的经常有报道。警察也不例外,不能随便入屋搜索。即使警察敲门问话,也需要告知对方自己是警察,并亮出自己的徽章工号才行。从录像来看,警察敲门的时候并没有这样做,只是随便敲门。作为女博士来说,她当然有理由有权利警惕陌生人的访问,在没有看清楚敲门人的身份之前可以不理睬。当然,她开门拿刀是有些过分,但也属于正当防卫。我们不清楚那个地方的治安环境。圣地亚哥的小意大利我去过,意大利餐很正宗,我特别喜欢。每次出差,我都喜欢去那里吃饭,治安似乎还不错。总之,你只要进入私人领地,就别抱怨别人对你的防备,这非常正常的。
警察第二次入屋并不是驱赶女博士,而是因为前面说的事,还有HOA以及修理工有报警,说女博士对修理工有持刀威胁。警察入屋是通过钥匙进入的。谁给了这个权利?有法庭的授权(warrant)吗?如果有人恶意报警,警察就可以入屋找人问话或抓人?这好像是不符合常识。除了女博士情绪比较紧张以外,目前不清楚她是否有精神疾病,但经过HOA欠钱的这个过程,她心理紧张是可以理解的。这件事情给人的启发是,警察往往把小事扩大化。好汉必须不吃眼前亏!除非你不想活了。
关于HOA的行为,这点比较复杂。这个小区的HOA(物业费)费用还算便宜的。网上有那里的公寓在出售,两房在70万左右,物业费用是800多点,一房大概是700多,不算太贵。要知道,这个小区还算比较新,不需要太多的维修费。HOA费用应该基本用在小区的设施绿化保安方面。不少老中在讨论退休屋的时候经常谈到物业费。绝大多数的HOA成员都是自愿者,屋主,没有工资的,大部分物业费都花在物业维护方面。如果不喜欢,当然可以不住该小区。天下没有免费的午餐,这应该都知道的。不高兴,认为有贪污腐败的,可以查账,都是公开的。
我相信女博士不会故意不付物业费的,这点常识都会有的。现在不少HOA把收费交给外面的合同公司打理,质量好坏对小区的居民很有影响。疫情爆发以来,邮件经常晚到,公司收不到钱就会送罚单,让人不高兴。有时候,公司也把账单搞错了,尤其是管理比较差的。我们现在都是用网上每月转钱,即使需要额外的费用也值得。HOA的条例往往是厚厚一大本,很多购屋者都不去读它,对迟交,不交物业费的惩罚不清楚,容易造成误解。尤其是国内来的,在国内迟交物业费往往没有罚款,以为美国也一样。
这个悲剧我认为,女博士本身有一定的责任。我们亚裔普遍都比较内向,尤其是搞科研的,不大跟人交流讨论。如果她能上文学城,可以到“投资理财”请教大家,也许不会是这样的结果。她自己不清楚是否有请律师帮助此案。如果有律师肯定也不会是这样的结果。HOA的做法也值得怀疑。这些人是业余的屋主,并非懂法,不清楚是否有通过法律顾问咨询此案。从公开的信息来看,HOA还有警察基本没有从女博士的角度来看这个问题,也许是没有经验,没有时间。最关键的是警察不够专业。当然,这些都必须在法庭上见分晓。但不管怎样,教训是,好汉必须不吃眼前亏,除非你真有赢的把握,不管是法庭内还是法庭外。
我对持刀时间、持刀地点、持刀用途的看法都在前面说过了,没必要再重复。
正如你所说,高法的理由是Lange的行为属于misdemeanor。
那么,高法为什么在Lange先生的危险驾驶发生地点是公共场合的情况下仍然认为仅仅是轻罪而非“构成threat to public safety”呢?
很明显,高法不是单单看一个因数(公共场合),肯定是全面考虑的结果。
所以,“持刀”不一定就是“抗法”,要全面考虑。
你的理直气壮,并没有事实作为依据,可惜你对我的举证视而不见。我再说一次。高法在lange上的理由是Lange的行为是misdemeanor,手持deadly weapon是crime,misdemeanor不足以构成 exigent circumstances。
李博士需要两个手拿刀吗?不能一个手拿刀,一个手接通知书,然后一个手把通知书扔到门外,一个手关门?这是最基本的常识。你怎么不提警察让她把刀放下,她不放下刀,拒绝警察送通知书?你认为这不是持刀抗法?
你说持刀时间、持刀地点、持刀用途这三个要素都不支持“持刀抗法”一说。你说什么时间、持什么地点、什么用途?警察让她放下,她说警察是intruder,你说她拿刀是什么用途。
Lange先生的危险驾驶是发生在公共道路上,难道没有“构成threat to public safety”吗?高院不照样否了加州吗?
李博士把通知书仍掉和关门的行为并不是依仗“持刀”才完成的,有没有刀她都能够把通知书仍掉和关门,当然不能说是“持刀抗法”。
总之,持刀时间、持刀地点、持刀用途这三个要素都不支持“持刀抗法”一说。
至于拒签,我没写清楚,对不起。
我是指拒签法庭通知书,不是指拒签警察交通罚单,因此加州地主们在拒签法庭通知书的后果这件事上比你更有发言权,我更希望看到他们的看法。
就像高院与加州对同一案件判决不同,我们大家对此案的看法也会不同,这很正常。等后续报道和发展吧。
你自己说如能以加州举例最好,其它州也行。怎么这回加州居民也许更有发言权了?
李博士明明持刀,拿着刀,与警察对峙,警察让她放下她拒绝,你非要说只是”构成抗法“,但不是”持刀抗法“。
李博士持刀威胁物管人员,你非要说不是针对警察,因此警察是违规执法。
Lange v. California一案中的涉事人明明是misdemeanor,李博士是手持deadly weapon,对公众造成潜在威胁,足以构成 exigent circumstances,你非要说警察在对待李博士的案子中违反高法的判决,无权进入执法。
除了第一个帖子是对楼主的评论,其他所有帖子都是对我的帖子的质疑的答复。我已经占用大家太多篇幅,就此打住,对那些概念不清,逻辑混乱,不以事实为依据的质疑不再一一答复。
警察让她把刀放下,而且反复不止一次,她拒绝,把通知书仍在地上,让后把甩门把警察关在门外,就可以言之凿凿地说她不是“持刀抗法“?
物管的话恰好佐证了她持刀并不是针对警察,针对无关就不是威胁他人生命了(public threat)?。
拒签是否在加州必然导致被捕,加州居民比加州警察更用发言权?
关于Lange v. California一案,我在前面说了,那个案子是misdemeanor,李博士构成threat to public safety。警察第二次进去已有足够理由不需要warrant入室实施逮捕:
In June 2021, the Supreme Court held that the Fourth Amendment requires the presence of case-specific exigent circumstances in order for police officers to enter a home without a warrant to make an arrest. Attempting to complete a misdemeanor arrest, the Court explained, does not categorically qualify as an “exigent circumstance” that allows for a warrantless home entry.
我从未说过警察第一次来时进了门,也许你在同时与多人讨论,搞混了对话人。
即使她在警察送文件时“构成抗法”,但也无法言之凿凿地说她“持刀抗法”,物管的话恰好佐证了她持刀并不是针对警察。
拒签是否在加州必然导致被捕,加州居民也许更有发言权。
不过,在你提供的Lange v. California一案中看出,即使是Lange发生在公共道路上的危险行为,高法都不认同加州警察在未经允许的情况下进入其屋内,更何况此案死者是在家而非公共场合持刀,打起官司来死者家属的赢面应该更大。
漏了第三条,公寓管理员已告知警察李博士之前已用刀威胁过工作人员,就像英文媒体报道的,“Based on this reported crime, there was a threat to public safety”, 如果警察对此置之不理,之后真发生砍杀事件,谁负这个责?公寓管理员是不是要告警察失职?
刚上网查了以下,在加州,你如果开车超速,拒绝签收警察的speed ticket,和维州一样,警察照样会逮捕你。
Do You Have to Sign a Traffic Ticket in California?
The short answer is, no. Legally, you are allowed to refuse to sign the traffic ticket. Nobody can force you to sign. However, there will be consequences. If you refuse to sign the traffic ticket, the issuing officer is required by law to arrest you. You will be taken into custody and presented before a judge for arraignment of the charges
我想这条法律也适用于警察送eviction notice。
首先,第一次警察根本就没有进门。李博士把通知仍在警察脚下,随手把门甩上。送通知的警察打电话叫特警来,在门外等了48分钟。第二,李博士把通知拒绝签收通知书,把通知是仍在地上,把警察关在门外,已经构成抗法。在我们维州,开车超速拒绝警察ticket,警察都会以抗法实施逮捕。
请注意,“死者开门”当然指的是警察送文件时,不是指后来警察开门。
看来你是指后来警察开门时她“持刀抗法”,这我同意。
但是,如果先前警察送文件时她没有“持刀抗法”,警察后来有什么理由凭“加州有关的法律,尤其是前三条”“在未经允许的情况下进入屋内”呢?
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开门前是不是持刀并不重要,重要的是警察让她放下刀她不放下,还把进入房内的三名警察从卧室门口把警察打的节节败退,最后三名警察被打到门外走廊,乱作一团摔倒在地,她还不住手,继续冲出门外俯身挥刀朝三名警察刺杀,一名警察胸部被刺,后送医院治疗。现在没人说警察开枪不对,但有很多说警察进入屋内违法,激化了矛盾。警察都带着bodycam,记录了执法过程,涉事警察都已停职接受调查,结果如何大家拭目以待。以往这种事情发生后,首先发声的是人权组织,指责警察暴力执法,但现在没有一个人权组织出来指责警察,只有个别律师认为警察处理不当。现在英文媒体的报道基本都有这两句"“Based on this reported crime, there was a threat to public safety,”,“This is also probable cause to arrest Li for assault with a deadly weapon.”
谢谢分享信息。
不过,死者开门之前已持刀,而不是看到警察后才拿刀,应该是预防前一天来过的物管/修理一干众人。
如果这也是“持刀抗法”的话,那我们都要小心了,开门时要确保手上没有如何东西,以免警察无中生有地大喊“把枪放下”,徒生不必要的危险。
要是不小心开门时手上有东西,门外不是警察就不用紧张,是警察的话要主动、立刻把手上东西往屋里扔掉,不要给警察大喊大叫的借口。
这是加州的具体条例:
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=836.&lawCode=PEN
高法overrule的案子多了去了,高法overrule了这个案子,为什么加州警察还在未经允许的情况下进入屋内,难道不懂法还是抗拒高法的overrule?请看看加州有关的法律,尤其是前三条:
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=836.&lawCode=PEN
连什么叫反例都弄不清,反例就是反证,懂吗?
我知道你要说这句话。这是什么case?是持deadly weapon 吗?我引用这条是说什么情况下可以进入,什么情况下不可以不进入。你先看看你自己前面引用的第二条,再晕也不迟。博士持刀抗法,还持刀威胁房产公司工作人员,能同日而语吗?看来你真是不可理喻。
In June 2021, the Supreme Court held that the Fourth Amendment requires the presence of case-specific exigent circumstances in order for police officers to enter a home without a warrant to make an arrest. Attempting to complete a misdemeanor arrest, the Court explained, does not categorically qualify as an “exigent circumstance” that allows for a warrantless home entry. In the majority opinion for the Court, Justice Kagan cited CAC’s brief as she detailed the common law’s traditional safeguards against warrantless home intrusions and how that history supported the Court’s ruling.
找到一个加州的案例,Lange v. California,供参考:
https://xxx.theusconstitution.org/litigation/lange-v-california/
xxx.jamescrawfordlaw.xxx/blog/criminal-lawyer-says-police-property-without-permission-warrant
再问“按照美国法律,警察在特殊情况下完全可以未经房主允许或没有法官签署的warrant进入屋内进行调查。”
请举一例说明什么是特殊情况?
如能以加州举例最好,其它州也行。
....
+100
非常同意枫茶的点评! 这事就是个悲剧,在法官和陪审团眼里,拿刀威胁别人是十恶不赦,扫帚言语也不可
Summons
Another way to be served for a traffic violation is by way of a summons. A summons takes the place of an actual arrest, and instead of being arrested, being taken to jail, and then released on promise to appear in court, all these steps are passed. You are simply summoned to court to face your charges. A summons is more serious than a traffic ticket because you must appear for your court date, and if you do not, then you may be subject to an arrest and will face new charges. A summons is usually issued for motor vehicle offenses including reckless driving or evading responsibility.
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Arrest不是执法问题?谁在说我不懂serve notice, 谁再说subpoena有好几种?谁在让一点法律意识都没有,到底谁在扯法律阿。我是在对你的评论一一回应。到底谁在不断的转移话题,胡搅蛮缠?还把中国扯进来。难道你想证明我是翻墙的,先天就不如你优越,先天就不如你懂法?
真是浪费时间,
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Yes, not only can you be arrested in Virginia for refusing to sign a summons, in fact you will be arrested for refusing to sign a summons in Virginia. Pursuant to Virginia law, officers are permitted, and in some situations required......
西雅图eagles 2022-03-16 08:36:46 回复 悄悄话 你们州警察问题太大了,当面撕罚单要被Arrest,你在中国?”
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谁在钻牛角尖?你还没有回答我的问题:中国各”州“有自己的法律吗?
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你先说说警察给你serve notice 或subpoena,你会像李博士一样吗?你在转移话题,真是浪费时间。
自治州,是中国行政区划之一,行政地位与地级市、地区、盟相同,属地级行政区,由省、自治区管辖,是中国在少数民族聚居地设立的地级民族自治地方。 按照《中华人民共和国宪法》的规定,民族自治地方享受较高的自我管理权力,设人民代表大会和人民政府。
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此外,中国的州有自己的法律吗?你的理解力太成问题。
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中国的州多了去了,杭州,苏州,广州是不是也要算州?博士在中国持刀抗法会被警察击毙的概率有多大?我在谈美国发生的事说州,中国和美国的法律一样吗?你这种辩解有意义吗?
回复 'mapletea' 的评论 :
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你又一次证明你逻辑有问题,中国有州吗?
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第二条也是非法入侵?请你仔细再读读。你说的第一条和第二条我在前面已经说了,都属于Search warrant,第一条是需要search毒品做证据,第三条是需要search赃物做证据,和博士案无关。博士拿刀拒收传票,之前拿刀威胁过其他人,持刀抗法就是证据,这就是你引用的第二条中说的“EXIGENT CIRCUMSTANCE“。
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你一边说警察激化矛盾,一边让博士学习佩罗西把通知一张一张撕了。那不更激化矛盾了?博士把通知仍在门外地上,朝警察甩门,已经涉嫌抗法,激化了矛盾,送文件的一般都是警察局行政人员,打电话让特警来处理,是执法程序。你开车超速,警察给你开罚单,你把罚单当着警察的面撕了试试,警察马上就可以把你arrest。在我们州,警察来送传票你不签收,警察都可以arrest你。
Examples
Blue circle with yellow number oneSEARCH WARRANT
Officer Brown and his team have a warrant to search Adam's home, based on probable cause that Adam has drugs inside. When they get to the door, Officer Brown announces that police are serving a search warrant and demands the door be opened. Adam hears them but decides not to open the door. Because he has a warrant, after a reasonable amount of time has passed Officer Brown and the team may break down the door, detain Adam, and search the residence.
Blue circle with yellow number twoEXIGENT CIRCUMSTANCE
A neighbor has called police and told them he can hear two people next door screaming at each other and items being smashed. Officer Brown knocks on the door and Adam answers. Brown sees Adam has a bloody nose. Adam won't let Officer Brown in the apartment and denies anybody else is home. Exigent circumstances allow Officer Brown to enter the apartment even over Adam's objection, because he has a good reason to think there might be somebody hurt inside.
Blue circle with yellow number threeUNLAWFUL ENTRY
Officer Brown has probable cause to arrest Adam for theft, but not a warrant. He goes to Adam's house and knocks on the door. Adam opens the door but does not step outside. After Adam refuses to come out, Officer Brown reaches across the threshold of the door and grabs Adam and drags him out. This arrest was illegal in Washington, because Officer Brown did not have a warrant to enter Adam's home, and reaching across the threshold of the door is an unlawful entry.
When can police legally enter my home?
If the officers have a search warrant or an arrest warrant for someone who lives at the residence, they may enter even without your permission.
If there is a reason to believe someone is injured or in danger, officers may enter without your permission.
If you verbally agree to let the officers enter or search your residence, the officers may do so. A third party (such as a guest) may not consent on your behalf.
Do I have to consent to letting the officers search my home?
Unless officers have a search warrant or there is an emergency, you can say no to a search, tell the officers what room(s) they can and can't search, and take away your consent at any time.
If the officers are looking for evidence of a crime, the officers are required to advise you of these rights, which are called Ferrier warnings.
If SPD officers enter with your consent, SPD policy requires that you either be asked to sign a "consent to search" form or that the consent be recorded on video.
What if officers enter without my permission?
In general, officers must knock and announce themselves and their purpose before forcing entry into your residence, even when they have a warrant.
Do not resist or argue with the officers, even if you believe what they are doing is illegal. Officers may handcuff you when they come in, and you should comply with their orders for safety.
If officers are serving a search warrant, you should be given a copy of the warrant as well as a receipt for any property the officers seized.
If you are arrested because of an arrest warrant, officers may wait to show you the warrant until you are booked into jail.
If officers do not have a warrant, request a business card with the officer's name, badge number, and the incident number.
mapletea 发表评论于 2022-03-16 08:15:29
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警察是去search吗?Serach什么?毒品,赃物,还说间谍文件?你引用的一大篇讲的的是search,和本案无关。
mapletea 发表评论于 2022-03-15 19:12:38
说到弱者,第一次去送通知的两个警察在李博士把通知仍在门外地上把门关上后并没有马上采取任何行动,而是打电话请求特警增援,等了48分钟特警才到达。
李燕的悲剧对普通美国人来说,就是缺乏常识。这跟海华回到国内办事不懂潜规则差不多
Grounds for Warrantless Searches
Under the law, police officers may be allowed to search through your private belongings in the following circumstances:
When permission is granted. Police do not need a warrant if you give them permission to conduct a search; however, you are under no obligation to give such consent. It is important to note that consensual searches are a controversial topic. For example, when there is more than one person in a residence, it may be unclear who is authorized to consent to a search.
Emergency circumstances. Sometimes police have probable cause to believe that a person is in danger or that valuable evidence is about to be destroyed. In these cases, they may be able to enter and search an area even without permission.
Searches made with arrests. When you are placed under arrest, police have the right to search you for any weapons or contraband items. If you are arrested while driving, they are also able to search the interior of your car. If they have probable cause to suspect that illegal items are in the car, they can conduct a full search (trunk, glove compartment, etc).
Plain view. Police do not need a warrant to seize any evidence they see in plain view while legally visiting a certain area. For example, if you allow the police into your home to talk to you, they can seize any illegal items or potential evidence they see lying around.
Unfortunately, these legal exceptions can be easily abused by negligent or overzealous officers. Our Champaign defense lawyers can inform you of your rights and fight to protect them.
关于“按照美国法律,警察在特殊情况下完全可以未经房主允许或没有法官签署的warrant进入屋内进行调查。”
请举一例说明什么是特殊情况,在哪里可以找到列出全部特殊情况的文件?谢谢。
我的认知与博主相近。
A "grave offense" happened or is happening;
The "suspect is reasonably believed to be armed;"
There's "more than minimum probable cause based on reasonably trustworthy information to believe" that whoever they're pursuing actually did something wrong;
第二,警察在屋外,没有权力进入,进入是违法
第三,在家手拿刀女博士没有走出屋。
第四,警察违法进入在先,女博士拿刀刺伤非法进入屋的人是正当防卫。
前两个警察只是送个通知,被通知人有权拒绝,被通知人也可以不开门,被通知人在家用也许本来手上有刀在干事,为什么警察送个通知就要拿枪让人在家放下刀?
借法院之手、拿走了女博士的房产;
又利用警察之手,取了她的性命!
一切都是那么自然、那么顺理成章!
她那愤愤不平的阴魂定会在那里Haunting。