2025 Daniel A. Bell 如何理解中国政治的新时代

如何理解中国政治的新时代

2025年2月5日 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPeoqgwFNb8

叶志雄：为好奇者策划对话 | The Front Row Podcast 主持人

贝淡宁 (Daniel A. Bell) 是香港大学法学院政治理论系教授、系主任。

他曾于2017年至2022年担任山东大学（青岛）政治与公共管理学院院长。

他的研究方向为比较政治理论，尤其关注儒家和法家思想。

他的著作包括：
《山东院长》（2023年）、
《公正等级》（与王培合著，2020年）、
《中国模式》（2015年）、
《城市精神》（与阿夫纳·德沙利特合著，2012年）、
《中国新儒家》（2008年）、
《超越自由民主》（2007年）、
《东方遇见西方》（2000年），
均由普林斯顿大学出版社出版。
他还著有《社群主义及其批评家》（牛津大学出版社，1993年）。

贝淡宁的最新著作《山东院长》以内部人士的视角，探讨了中国学术界和中国政治体制。

时间戳：

00:00 引言
00:50 中国学术界的现实
06:05 贤能政治作为一种替代理想
11:02 规模在政治中的重要性
16:30 中国的腐败与治理
23:20 法家思想的实践
24:43 儒家思想对中国政治的影响
32:58 马克思主义在中国政治中的应用
43:19 一人统治的迷思
51:14 中国的公关问题
56:12 中国贤能政治与民主的未来
01:00:04 批判“可爱”
01:04:56 文化洞察：加拿大 vs. 中国
01:08:49 香港精神
01:10:30 给即将步入职场的毕业生的建议
01:13:03 哪里可以找到贝教授

叶志雄

今天我们讨论的是中国政治哲学 马克思主义 法家思想 儒家思想 当你思考中国政治和哲学时，这些词对你来说可能听起来有些大，但如果你想了解它们对当今中国政治的影响，今天我邀请到了丹尼尔·贝尔教授。他是山东大学的第一位外籍院长，也是中国大学的第一位外籍院长。他之前常驻山东，山东是著名中国哲学家胡适的故乡。作为中西政治哲学的专家，他是帮助你理解影响当今中国的不同哲学的最佳人选。我希望你喜欢我和丹尼尔·贝尔教授的谈话。我在阅读《中国学术的现实》时，第一个问题是，你最近的一本书《山东大学的院长》，你对西方学术环境和中国学术环境进行了比较或对比。大多数人认为你知道在中国，一切都是审查制度，没有学术自由，但你似乎有不同的看法或看法，不同的生活态度。经验

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引言
今天我们来谈谈中国政治哲学。马克思主义、法家思想、儒家思想，当你思考中国政治和哲学时，这些词对你来说可能听起来有些高深，但如果你想了解它们对当今中国政治的影响，今天我邀请到了丹尼尔·贝尔教授。他是山东大学的第一位外籍院长，也是中国大学的第一位外籍院长。他之前常驻重庆，也就是著名中国哲学家康德的故乡。作为中西政治哲学的专家，他是帮助你理解影响当今中国的不同哲学体系的最佳人选。我希望你喜欢我和丹尼尔·贝尔教授的对话。这是我在阅读时提出的第一个问题。

中国学术界的现实

你最近的著作《山道院长》中，对西方学术环境和中国学术环境进行了比较或对比。大多数人认为中国到处都是审查制度，没有学术自由。但你似乎有不同的看法，不同的视角，以及不同的生活、文化和文化体验。嗯，中国确实存在审查制度，而且中国大陆的审查制度也在加强。我不想否认这一点，但有很多领域
存在大量的知识交流和争论。所以，如果你研究儒家思想，就会发现有很多不同的争论，其中一些非常激烈。例如，最近的争论是，是否有一篇有影响力的文章认为性爱机器人是儒家理想的妻子。你可以想象，儒家女权主义者会对此做出激烈的反应。这只是众多争论中的一个例子。不触及最高层的政治，就能蓬勃发展，而且他们讨论的问题
对中国以外的人可能不太感兴趣，比如儒家思想，
对我的家乡加拿大人来说
就不太感兴趣，嗯，而且
也不太担心政治正确，嗯，我的意思是，现在随着美国新政府的上台，术语可能有所改变，但许多
学者觉得，在涉及性别或种族的问题上，他们如履薄冰，嗯，但在
中国，这种非正式的审查制度较少，所以你提到了我的书《尚道院长》，我在书的开头就列举了中国所有的问题，因为你必须表达这些观点，才能
表达你真正想说的话。中国存在一种非正式的审查机制，你很容易
被贴上标签一个中国辩护者，你首先必须说，你知道中国有很多侵犯人权的行为，这些都是错误的。当然，这都是事实。但只有这样，人们才会听。所以，即使在学术上，如果你想在学术期刊上发表文章，而不使用威权主义的语言来讨论或描述中国的政治体制，你就会被打倒，很难发表。幸运的是，以书籍形式出版实际上比以文章形式出版更自由。呃，非正式审查较少，而且有更多的空间。嗯，我称之为原创思维。在英语世界，另一个关键的区别是，在中国，人们非常致力于服务社会。所以，尤其是在人文或社会科学领域，你会专注于自己的工作，而不是为社会做贡献。你知道，在象牙塔里服务，在中国，这种传统较少，部分原因是。这和公共政策体系有关，但我认为它有更深的根源。嗯，我们可以把它称为
儒家关于美好生活的理念，同时也服务于社会。但更多的是隐性或显性的
假设，即作为一名学者，你不仅仅是发表文章和维护真理，而不管对社会的影响如何，你的工作应该与为社会福祉做贡献更紧密地联系在一起。是的，这些
只是一些简单的区别，但这取决于领域，取决于时间段，取决于
我们将其与哪个国家进行比较，我的意思是，甚至与中国进行比较，我的意思是，现在的香港，在很多方面，
更接近西方的体系，在这种体系中，你的奖励几乎完全取决于你在顶尖学术期刊和大学出版社的出版记录，而你是否为社会做出贡献，在招聘和晋升方面几乎完全无关紧要，这更接近西方的模式。香港的好的一面是，这里的学术自由比中国大陆多得多。香港在某种程度上更接近新加坡，在那里，你几乎可以随心所欲地做和说，只要不涉及香港政府。我指的是我在新加坡的经历。我认为情况在某些方面已经发生了变化，但我仍然认为新加坡政府存在某种形式的审查制度，正式的、非正式的审查制度。但除此之外，新加坡的学术环境非常非常自由。香港的情况与新加坡有点相似。我认为近年来，新加坡开放了空间，甚至允许批评意见进入公众，以便公众同意。我的第一份工作是在19124年的新加坡和美国。坦率地说，那段日子在学术自由方面并不理想，但为了写另一本我称之为“中国模式”的书，在中国，很难以一种平衡的学术方式来探讨一些问题。

这些政治敏感问题，所以我实际上去了新加坡，嗯，待了一个学期，在那里我
可以拥有英文和中文的图书馆，并且几乎完全拥有学术自由，所以新加坡
比以前好得多。谈到中国模式，你提到的一个关键假设是

贤能政治作为一种替代理想

面临的挑战是，是否存在一个清晰的比较，或者我们应该如何比较
民主和专制政府，其中自由民主
显然是更优的替代方案？我想问你的问题是，你为什么认为这是错误的？对我来说，这只是因为这些标签太模糊了，嗯，一方面，它们是描述性的
你知道，民主意味着你通过自由和公正的竞争性选举来选出政治领导人，通常
它涉及自由主义价值观，比如法治、权力分立和
保护个人权利，而且它也是一种规范性的说法，认为这是一种比
替代方案更好的制度，你知道的，但民主的
标签和威权的标签都包含了如此多种多样的政府形式，以至于它对于
对政治世界进行分类并不是很有用。我的意思是，正如我之前提到的，我的第一份工作是在新加坡，而它在西方被贴上了
一种威权政府的标签。拉埃尔（Lael）被用来形容朝鲜，你知道，还有沙特阿拉伯，所以我的意思是完全不同，中国也是如此。我的意思是，要理解政治体制，你首先必须了解，什么是激励理想，然后试着思考我在多大程度上，这些理想在实践中得以实现，以及在多大程度上，有办法缩小理想与现实之间的差距。我之前一直生活在加拿大和英国，我有点被这种观点洗脑了，认为只有一种合法的政治体制，那就是，通过自由公正的竞争性选举选出政治领导人，并享有相关的自由，而所有其他的体制，都应该被贴上威权主义的标签，从根本上来说都是不合法的。我带着这种包袱来到新加坡，花了很长时间才适应，也许我甚至没有很好地适应新加坡，花了很长时间才摆脱这种教条主义的观点。可以说是我的体制，但实际上，直到我在北京新加大学待了八年，我才意识到，我的同事们谈论的不是如何培训，如何选拔和提拔能力和德行均超乎平均水平的领导者，如何衡量能力，如何衡量德行，能力和德行之间有什么关系？然后我意识到，这种思维方式在中国既是一种理想，也是一种制度，嗯，也是一种实践，有着悠久的历史。试图理解这一点非常令人着迷，所以我用了“政治贤能政治”这个标签，中文版可能更准确。我写了《中国模式》这本书，试图理解这种理想，展示了它的
优势和劣势，并提出了缩小理想与现实之间差距的方法。所以，这是一种非常不完善的贤能政治，就像美国的民主一样，它也是一种非常不完善的民主。但我们需要意识到首先，什么是根本的理想，然后是它的优点和缺点，并思考如何缩小理想与现实之间的差距。如果我没有在北京的大学里待了这么多年，我甚至不会想到这个问题。嗯，未来领袖。我在新加坡待了三年，但我没有。这对我的政治
体制来说是一个冲击，但很难接受这种教条主义的观点，认为新加坡的政治体制
从根本上来说是不合理的，因为它与我小时候学到的那些理想不符。几乎毫无疑问，嗯，现在我认为新加坡也是一个
精英政治体制，是的，不完美，但它可能是世界上最接近理想的政治体制。我非常钦佩你在播客中采访的许多领导人，比如kisher maani。我非常钦佩他们，事实上，即使在新加坡。我在那里的时候，我在一家办公室工作，
我认识瑞典国王，和他一起出去玩，他邀请我和当时在他研究所工作的妻子一起吃饭，还有我当时的妻子，我非常钦佩他，但我仍然
没有改变他那种教条主义的观点，好吧，他是一位非常杰出和鼓舞人心的政治开国元勋，
但即使这样，也没有从我的思想体系中摆脱出那种教条主义的观点，即只有一个
合法政府，而它不是新加坡的政府，我之前不知道这一点，所以很高兴听到你
在新加坡的根源和经历。那么回到政治贤能政治的问题，那么你心目中的理想版本是什么，应该如何建立新加坡政府呢？

为什么规模在政治中很重要？

规模对政治很重要，对吧？这就是为什么在较小的政治共同体中，建立某种民主机制更为重要。
这是J·库索等人在《柏拉图哲学》中提出的一个老观点。
我有一个新加坡的例子，它让我想起了这一点。我非常钦佩乔治，
我有点失望他在选举中落选了。
不久之后，我在新加坡坐出租车，我和出租车司机聊天，我说，这到底是怎么回事？
我的意思是，乔治非常出色。然后出租车司机说，我同意他很出色。我说，他
说，但我没有投票给他。我说为什么？他说，因为他没有参加我父亲的葬礼。我想，哦，我的天哪。我意识到，只有在非常小的柏拉图共同体中，这才会成为问题。对吧？我的意思是，在中国，
你知道吗？总统可以参加每个人的葬礼。所以，在小社区中，与选民建立直接联系，拥有更强大的民主机制，这一点更为重要。在像中国这样的大社区中，民主机制就更加强大。这是一个非常深刻的例子。但中国幅员辽阔，所以在不同级别的政府中，选拔和提拔领导人的方式也各不相同。这不是我个人的想法，而是通过采访领导人，包括组织部领导，这个部门负责选拔和提拔中国政治体系中的领导人。我问他们，你知道哪些能力重要吗？在选拔过程中，哪些美德重要？然后，我被告知，这取决于政府级别。从低级到中级，更重要的是运用我们今天所说的民主机制，看看领导人在多大程度上支持了人民，他们在多大程度上服务于当地社区等等。而如果承认更高级别的政府，那么政府的问题就会变得更加复杂，对领导者来说，更重要的是，不仅要能够……执行政策，而不是思考如何制定明智的政策，这些政策不仅影响当地社区，也影响国家，以及子孙后代和其他国家。这需要经济学、国际关系、哲学和历史方面的知识，例如，如果你研究环境科学，还需要有良好的政治判断记录。所以，随着你在政治指挥链中向上攀升，更重要的是要有更基于精英的选拔和提拔政治领导人的方式。所以，中国的基本制度是，在基层政府中采用民主的领导人选拔制度，然后，随着你在更高层级的政府中晋升，它逐渐变得更加基于精英。我的意思是，这是理想的，但在你做得好的地方，还有实验的空间。中国的成功，在一定程度上，是因为它已经在中层进行了大量创新和实验。政府在如何选拔和提拔领导人方面，那么问题来了，好吧，我们或多或少地……呃，那么，建立更加精英化的领导人选拔体系究竟意味着什么呢？首先，领导者拥有超乎寻常的分析能力非常重要，因为问题非常复杂，这需要掌握许多不同学科的知识，并且具备非常好的分析能力。你可以说中国政治体制有很多不好的地方，但有一点是肯定的，我认为新加坡的情况非常相似，这里的领导人通常都非常……才华横溢，我的意思是，在政府高层，这一点毋庸置疑，嗯，但是……政治不像学者，如果你是学者，你知道，你只是待在办公室里……读书或进行不与他人打交道的实验，你仍然可以取得成功。但在政治中，你花费大量时间与……利益相关者打交道，这需要良好的人际交往能力或情商，嗯，嗯，如果你缺乏这些，就很难在这个体系中立足，所以再次强调……在政府高层任职非常重要，要展现出你具备这些技能，最重要的是要有一定的品德，也就是愿意服务社区，而不是为了个人和家庭的利益而滥用公共资源，嗯，换句话说，不要腐败。问题是，我们如何才能更好地评估这些技能，组织部门就是其中之一，它是世界上最大的人力资源部门，要理解中国的政治体制，我们必须明白，当你谈论政治精英主义的理想时，
实际上，当你在实践中思考它时，你或许应该公平地看待这一点，这源于
像你这样的经济学家的著作，她谈到中国在很大程度上实际上是精英统治的，
如果你想想像像鲍里斯·约翰逊这样的人，他确实帮助清朝建立了一个更加繁荣的国家，
但他们面临的问题是腐败盛行，所以当我

中国的腐败与治理

我开始担任山东大学的校长，这所大学是山东省首屈一指的大学，致力于解决亿万人民的问题。当时正值反腐风暴的高峰期，所以我们不得不设立小型办公室，不仅是我的办公室，连我隔壁的市委书记的办公室也非常小。官员们不得不被拆分成两组。所有的餐食都必须记录，我们必须记录我们点的每一道菜，而且公费消费不准饮酒。所有这些措施都使得花钱变得非常复杂。这使得包括我在内的人们更加保守，缺乏创新和实验精神。这并非一个非常新颖的观点，但根据我自己的经验，我可以支持我的观点：过度的，或者说，法律主义的腐败手段，让人们担心走错一步会受到惩罚，往往会使公职人员非常规避风险，并且在糟糕的环境下变得保守。方式
意思是不愿意考虑新的挑战和应对这些挑战的新方法，嗯，坦率地说，这对国家的长远发展不利。所以，反腐运动最明显的弊端，尤其是那些
涉及严厉手段、让人们害怕受到惩罚的运动，就是它会让官僚和公职人员保持低调，不像他们本来应该的那样勇于尝试和创新。而且，坦率地说，在公职人员之间以及公职人员与其他人之间建立信任，很大程度上需要通过聚餐和饮酒来建立，尤其是在山东省，那里的人均酒精消费量是中国最高的。这在某种程度上被视为美好生活的一部分，或者说是建立信任的方式。所以，由于这些非常严格的反腐措施，所有这些活动都结束了，让人们比以前更加个人主义，是的，我的意思是，我认为这正在改变一个对惩罚的恐惧有所减少，即使是现在，比如现在出门在外，不必把每道菜都记下来，而且我认为公共场合可以喝啤酒，人们也不像以前那样害怕和担心做错事了，所以情况有所放松，但我认为还有很长的路要走，最终，我们必须减少对惩罚的恐惧，更多地依靠其他机制来控制腐败，包括像新加坡那样提供更高的工资，但中国仍然是一个相对贫穷的国家，所以新加坡的工资可能很低，但一定程度的道德自律很重要，这就是传统混乱的地方。我补充一下，你谈到了法家思想，实际上我记得在你的书中，你谈到了你与法律打交道，这其实是一个非常有趣的轶事，关于政府如何实施非常严厉的措施，事实上，你看到的是法家思想，然后随着时间的推移，它开始使用更温和的
手段，比如说混淆视听的ISM，你被迫通过道德手段进行自我约束，我想是的。
我认为这对新加坡来说应该不陌生，你知道新加坡曾被称为“精致城市”，但现在
人们对罚款的依赖减少了，人们已经内化了罚款，比如你不应该走路，不要乱扔垃圾等等，所以中国的情况类似，所以我并不反对法家思想本身，我的意思是，有时候
你会反对，记住法家思想意味着严厉的惩罚，必须严格而统一地执行。
同样，你知道，没有例外，也不考虑特殊情况。
如果存在严重问题，这可能是必要的，而且我们希望快速见效，最终可以有效地让人们改变主意，意识到这一点。我的意思是，例如在酒驾问题上，人们知道这一点。这样做有点不好，但对他们的行为影响不大。十多年前在中国发生的事情是这样的，
统计数据显示，酒驾引发的事故非常多，最终政府决定严肃对待这个问题。例如在北京，
他们在很多街角对行人进行随机检查，如果酒精含量略微超过规定，他们的车至少会被暂时没收，六个月内不得开车。所以，在这场运动刚开始的时候，我也遇到过这种情况，嗯，就我的情况而言，它确实有效。从那以后，如果我酒驾，我一滴酒都没喝过，所以最终，哎呀，不需要那么多检查了，这改变了人们的看法，尽管他们内心深处知道喝酒不喝酒是不对的，但最终这些严厉的措施是有效的，没有必要再以同样的程度执行，它从法律监管变成了道德自律，而且它非常有效，所以法律主义是有效的，可以这么说，如果人们已经知道某件事不好，但它并没有真正影响他们的行为，如果这只是一种非常短期的、临时的应急措施，而情况变得更糟，我的意思是，在运动开始后不久，情况变得更法律化，我的意思是，如果我几个月后以同样的方式被抓到，我就会被送进监狱，没有任何借口，你知道，嗯，所以情况变得更糟了，但现在在北京开车，酒精检查非常少，你仍然需要偶尔检查，但几乎没有，但是现在几乎再也没有醉酒打鼓的事了，当然，还有其他处理方法。现在有一种做法，嗯，如果你在开车时喝酒了，那么有一种服务，你可以打电话，然后他们会过来，一个人骑着自行车过来，你可以把自行车折叠起来，放在汽车后备箱里，然后他们会帮你开车，这是一种非常有效的处理他问题的方法。所以，一方面，你把它从法律监管转变为道德自律。另一方面，你也有实际的方法来处理这个问题。在我们看来，你知道

法家思想的实践

严厉的惩罚实际上或多或少是你想要在国家树立的道德文化的先导，但这并不意味着如果人们内心深处不知道其中有什么问题，严厉的惩罚就不会奏效。我的意思是，没错，真正的先导是某种道德信念，即你所做的事情是错的，但这不会影响你的行为。如果法律到位，把锤子放在你的头上，那么它就会起作用。所以，真正的先导是某种观点，你知道你做错了，但并没有错到那种程度，这时法家的手段就可以发挥作用了。是的，就像在新加坡随地吐痰一样，我们都知道这是不对的，但过去人们经常在街上随地吐痰，但现在几乎没有人会这样做，也没有人会因为乱扔垃圾或冲厕所之类的事情而受到惩罚，到目前为止，我们已经讨论过很多了。有很多关于法家思想的内容，但我们也看到儒家思想实际上对中国政治哲学有很大的影响，嗯，这就是我提出一个大问题的地方，我请你帮我总结一下儒家思想数千年丰富的历史，但也许你能解释一下儒家思想是如何影响今天的中国政治的，嗯，正如你所说，我的意思是混淆

儒家思想对中国政治的影响

是一个非常丰富多元的传统，如果我们想把它缩小到核心的
一些主张，我的意思是，我认为，如果你是fion，你基本上
认为美好的生活包括培养人道和和谐的社会关系，这
听起来有点琐碎，谁会不同意呢？但你对美好生活还有其他看法，对吧？它可能是一种宗教生活，让你把自己与
社区或家庭分离，嗯，但对于困惑的人来说，不，我的意思是，它真的在培养人道的社会
关系，嗯，但最好的生活是你作为一名公职人员为社区服务，因为那是你拥有政治权力后能做最多善事的方式。听起来，谁会不同意呢？嗯，很多人不同意
一些宗教理想认为，最好的生活包括与社区分离，或者例如，你知道，在柏拉图的《理想国》中，最好的生活包括寻求事实是，只有第二种选择，你才会回到
洞穴里，服务社会。儒家认为，最好的人生就是服务社会。
而要做到这一点，理想情况下，你必须致力于不断完善自我，嗯，嗯，并且有一个机制，允许根据官员的卓越能力和德行来选拔和提拔他们。这种理想在中国政治体系中有着巨大的影响力。嗯，在整个历史中，但最著名的是
它通过库鲁，嗯，科举制度，或者说
科举制度被制度化。但最近，这种理想在中国经济改革时期得到了复兴。
公职人员的选拔是根据他们的能力，你怎么衡量呢？嗯，你如何通过经验和在基层政府的成功来衡量？嗯，你如何衡量呢？嗯，然后通过德行，也就是不腐败，并且表现出一些服务社会的意愿。嗯，所以这种政治精英主义的传统在过去几十年里得到了强有力的复兴。嗯，所以人们说中国有很多经济改革，但没有政治改革。嗯，没有政治改革。
改革是什么意思？政治体制与文革时期的体制完全不同。
现在有一个非常强大、制度化且复杂的官僚体系，旨在选拔和提拔具有特定能力和德行的公职人员。虽然这个体系非常不完善，而且不断变化，但它确实存在。嗯，它背后的理念是一种非常古老的混乱，即神权政治的理念，但这也不是明显的混乱。我的意思是，大多数人可能也持有类似的观点。嗯，即使是法家，但法家只在乎能力，而不在乎德行，对吧？我的意思是，像法家这样的人。
例如商鞅，嗯，你知道，他对统治者有很大的影响。
后来成为中国的第一位皇帝，唐玄宗。他说，好吧，你想任命……
贤能政治，你怎么做到的？根据敌方士兵斩首的数量，这是一种非常客观的方法。衡量成功的人，他们对美德持怀疑态度，我认为这都是虚伪的，也许这就是法家和有神论者有共同之处的地方，但不，混淆说不，我们既需要能力，也需要德行，能力
不应该仅仅是军事上的成功，还应该以有效的方式服务社会，以促进人民的福祉，所以这是一种方式，嗯，而且我的意思是，儒家价值观影响政治体系的具体方式，我的意思是想想在楚国，它是儒家文化的发源地。在山东省，公职人员的晋升取决于他们的
FAL（能力），这在中国历史上也有悠久的传统。嗯，你如何衡量这一点呢？他们会直接采访那些正在考虑晋升的公职人员的父母，如果父亲年迈的父亲母亲说我的儿子或女儿不太好，这
就会对他们的晋升机会产生负面影响。你知道我来自肯，我的意思是在肯唱这首歌会很疯狂，但在一个国家，人们普遍认为腓立比很重要，嗯，这也是一种衡量标准，如果人们不能
善待自己的父母，或者对父母怀有敬畏之心和关爱之心，那么很难将这种爱和关爱延伸到家庭之外，所以这也是一种衡量
公职人员品德的标准，这直接让人感到困惑，但我的意思是，现在要想再次成为公职人员，你必须经历所有这些考验，而第一个考验就是进入一所
好大学，并在学业上取得好成绩。你该如何做到这一点呢？你需要通过大学考试制度，大学考试制度的内容是什么？嗯，它需要学习一些知识。古典文学研究者必须学习一些令人困惑的思想，或者说，他们必须学习一些道理。他们不仅要记住，还要懂得如何解读这些段落。所以，儒家传统对当今政治体系有着非常具体的持久影响。有时，这种影响来自底层，而不是政府本身。所以，清明节是全国性的节日。清明节是怎么来的呢？不是政府决定把它定为全国性节日，而是成千上万的工人会请假去扫墓，在那天祭拜祖先。最后，政府说，我们就要把它定为全国性节日。所以，其中一些力量也来自下层。嗯，你能不能讲讲他公开演讲时谈到的“无柄”问题？学者是最高尚的职业，而不是奋斗者。这才是理想的生活，所以我认为中国的政治生活应该会很相似，最优秀、最有德行的人都应该努力成为政治家，这似乎与美国形成了鲜明对比。美国
整个国家都是一种文化，都在模仿或试图模仿资本主义，而塔隆集团则主要
专注于资本主义领域。你怎么看待这种观点？我认为是对的，但请记住，中国是一个非常多元化的国家，所以这种混乱的影响在山东省和中国相关地区更为强烈。如果你去南方，你会发现
那里的创业精神更强，也更接近于这样一种理念：获得成功的途径是通过赚钱。这又是一个非常具体的方式。在中国大部分地区，尤其是南方，幸运数字是8，对吧？因为它听起来像B，又像胖子，听起来像是靠车牌和手机赚钱。你会想看到幸运数字8。我想新加坡的情况也类似，如果我没记错的话，但在山东省，幸运数字是7。为什么？因为有句俗话说，如果你57岁了，还在政府部门任职，你还有晋升的希望。但如果你58岁了，你的职位基本上就走下坡路了。所以，在我所在的大学，一个7号的办公室比8号的更有声望。在山东省，人们甚至会争着要7号的电话号码。所以，中国是一个多元化的国家，这种“最好的生活是学者的生活，尤其是学者官员的生活”的观念，在中国受儒家传统影响较大的地区更为盛行。

马克思主义在中国政治中

我的下一个问题是，马克思主义在中国政治中的影响。我认为大多数西方评论员或西方媒体对共产党的看法非常粗略，他们认为共产主义就是压制和缺乏政治权利，完全的国家控制，而更微妙的国家控制则取决于具体情况。我的意思是，共产主义传统也非常多元化，就像儒家传统一样，虽然可以说相当新，而且缺乏多样性，但马克思对共产主义的最初设想是这样的：
资本主义的问题在于，资本显然归资本家所有，而广大工人必须
工作来赚钱，所以工作是谋生的手段，而不是生活的首要需求。我们应该走向一个工人不再被迫工作作为谋生手段的社会，最终如何通过发展经济来实现这一点？发展经济，让先进的机器完成社会必需的工作，满足人们的基本需求，然后他们……自由地发挥他们的批判才能。你如何才能做好这一点？你必须经历资本主义的进程。这是
马克思自己的观点，马克思自己的历史理论，因为只有通过资本主义，你才能发展技术和有效地运用技术的能力。资本家需要相互竞争才能获利，而做到这一点的方法就是不断改进技术。作为资本主义的副产品，
你拥有了技术，更好的机器。
最终，我们会达到一个点，根据马克思的说法，资本主义可以被推翻，我们可以走向共产主义。在这个制度下，技术是基础，基本上归人民所有。
而人民，社会必要的工作由机器完成，然后人们被创造。
去发挥他们的创造性才能。这就是我们的想法。现在在中国，马克思主义
正在卷土重来，因为人们对人工智能抱有相当乐观的看法。如果以一种对社会有益的方式进行管理，或者以一种合理的方式进行监管，那么人工智能不仅现在，而且几十年后，都能让我们……对社会有益，也许几十年后我们就能拥有先进机械，
这是社会必需的工作，是肮脏危险的重复性工作，如果不是必须，人们不会愿意做，然后我们就能自由地
实现创造才能。这也是为什么马克思主义现在在中国复兴的原因之一，因为马克思主义的共产主义理想现在似乎更有可能实现。D shaing 说得对，我们需要经历资本主义，发展生产力，但这只是一种手段，最终我们需要走向一个更加共产主义的社会，所以
这也是为什么共产主义正在卷土重来的原因之一。它与混乱的理想不同。需要重复的是，混乱的理想是通过和谐和人性化的社会关系来实现我们的创造性本质，这不需要涉及创造性劳动，但对于马克思主义者来说，我们真正通过创造性劳动来实现我们的创造性本质。那么，我们如何调和这两者呢？我的意思是，在实践中，它们可能会发生冲突，对吧？我的意思是，当我在《中国》中提出了一些想法。你知道，有一次，一位年轻女士走过来对我说，你知道，这并不抽象，我感到一种紧张。我的意思是，一方面，我想通过工作实现自我价值；另一方面，我对年迈的父母负有义务，他们之间会发生冲突，在时间和精力方面，我该如何处理？所以，他们之间没有和谐的、必然和谐的方法来处理这个问题，但我认为这两种理想都很重要。如果你想了解中国的政治制度和军事理想，我认为我们现在需要了解这两种理想。关于马克思主义的另一个更历史性的观点是，为什么它……为什么它真的……成为中国的主导意识形态？原因之一是，对马克思来说，……我认为几乎所有马克思主义者都会同意这一点，Garmin 的最终目标，或者至少……最重要的是为人民提供物质福祉，嗯，这种思想可以追溯到很久以前，我的意思是儒家很久以前，甚至连被认为是儒家最理想的梅尼斯都持有这种观点。他说，首先，人们必须拥有稳定的物质生活，有时“hung”（悬而未决）可以翻译成财产或基本的物质需求，然后他们才能有道德。因为如果你总是为生活必需品而挣扎，你怎么可能有道德呢？我的意思是，这也是一个经典的马克思主义观点。首先，你满足了人们的基本物质需求，然后他们才能践行道德。他们才能关心他人的福祉，并对家庭以外的社会承担义务等等。所以，在中国历史上，政府一直持有这种强烈的观点。我们需要应对饥荒，我们需要应对贫困，这在西方政府甚至还没有考虑过这种观点之前就存在了。政府应对的义务之一是减轻贫困，这在西方是一个相对较新的想法，大概有三四百年的历史了。但在中国，这可以追溯到早期的混乱时期，嗯，这也是马克思主义在20世纪在中国扎根的原因之一。当然，它的阴暗面也是，你知道列宁主义对马克思主义传统的看法，我的意思是，一方面，你需要一个强大的中央组织来统治国家。另一方面，我们可以依靠极端措施来清除政治对手。这种观点也有很大的影响，尤其是在战时。我的意思是，坦率地说，共产党为什么能赢，比如说在内战中，他们之所以能获胜，是因为他们有一个更强大、更有效的列宁主义组织，领导人的言论会传达到基层，而且很有效，有时是相当严厉的措施。在战争时期，这或许是一种有效的策略，但一旦你开始在和平时期统治一个国家，这种方法往往会导致灾难，就像随后发生的19世纪那样。关于马克思主义，赫里提出的完整问题是，你知道，有一种观点认为，国家会逐渐消失，当你榨干了所有你能榨干的东西，当你的机器变得如此先进时，国家就会消失。但在中国，你认为情况并非如此，国家将继续扮演强势角色，即使在理想状态下也是如此。所以，马克斯没有预料到现在对我们来说显而易见的几个发展，一是他对机械和技术非常乐观，他认为机械最终可以达到我们做社会必要工作的程度，但他没有预料到机械会变得如此先进，以至于可以主宰人类，甚至对人类构成生存威胁，现在随着人工智能的发展，我的意思是，这是我们担心的事情，所以国家迫切需要对人工智能进行监管，以确保人工智能服务于人类的需求，并防止或至少将人工智能可能对人类构成生存威胁的风险降至最低。在这种情况下，人类会成为奴隶，而不是技术成为奴隶。或者说，“奴隶”这个词比较极端，我的意思是，理想情况下，机器应该为人类服务，而不是人类服务。国家需要确保这种可能性。气候变化等问题也是如此。马克思无法预料，或者至少他没有预料到，技术会发展到足以破坏环境的程度，并创造一种环境，使环境再次对人类构成生存威胁，例如气候变化和全球变暖。因此，为了监管这些，我们需要强有力的遏制。显然，原子能，你知道，核武器，我的意思是，这是一个根本性的威胁，我们需要一个国家来监管核武器。当然，今天我们也想到了流行病。我知道我们需要一个国家来应对这些，所以出于所有这些原因，存在着马克思无法预见的生存威胁。嗯，还有，
马克认为，一旦我们拥有了先进的机器，人们的基本需求得到了满足，我们就不需要国家了。因为国家的主要目的是行使强制手段，特别是为了统治阶级的利益。但如果没有统治阶级，嗯，那么就不再需要国家了。它会逐渐消亡。现在我们知道，即使有了先进的机器，以及人与人之间在社会和物质上的平等，我们仍然需要一个全A的国家。一个至少有能力防止生存威胁变得严重的国家。国家的存在实际上是为了提供保护，以确保
生产资料不会真的对你不利。我想，是的，这是其中的一部分，但我的意思不仅仅是提供保护，而是努力确保，我的意思是，直到我们达到这样的状态。存在一种高级共产主义社会，人们的基本物质需求因为先进的机械而得到满足，但要尝试引导技术发展，使其有利于人类，这意味着技术服务于人民，而不是反过来。在我们达到这种高级共产主义状态之前，需要一个更积极的政府来努力确保技术服务于人民，而不是反过来。快进到今天，当我们回顾总统和他的政策时，我们看到两项基石政策。强国，也就是双循环，他试图通过加强国内消费来增强中国的国内经济，同时，他一直在对外推行共同繁荣，你知道，这似乎是一个更
更马克思主义的政府，某种意义上，它正试图更积极地将财富重新分配给最贫穷的阶层，但其中有多少可以归因于总统本人，又有多少可以归因于更大的政策机构，也就是中国共产党？我认为，现在有一种倾向，认为在中国的政治体制中，只有一个人决定一切。我的意思是

一人统治的迷思

2012年，中国面临三大问题或挑战。首先，腐败现象完全失控，对政治体系构成了威胁。为了进入学校或医院获得公共服务，你必须行贿，这真的激怒了人民。其次，经济发展速度过快，导致贫富差距过大，这又引发了人们对富人的强烈不满，有些人认为这个体制不公平，人们不再拥有像以前那样平等的竞争和发展机会。第三，经济发展带来了巨大的环境灾难性后果。我的意思是，你知道，我当时住在北京，那里的情况非常糟糕。污染完全失控，影响了人们的日常生活，影响了中国大部分地区。水质非常糟糕等等。所以，这三个问题一直困扰着我们。无论谁是头号人物，这些问题都会得到解决，嗯，这或多或少就是2011-12年以来发生的事情。在减少腐败方面，尤其是在减少收入差距和减少温室气体排放方面，以及在为贫困和弱势地区人民提供更平等的机会方面，都投入了更多精力，而且采取了更有力的措施来应对环境可持续性问题。嗯，现任领导人当然是平等之首，而政治局
常委会在某种程度上发生了变化，因为在2011-12年之前，常委会中有九位领导人，每个人基本上都控制着系统的一部分，对任何影响他们利益的事情都有否决权，所以很难完成工作，因为政治体系中有很多否决权，所以最终走向了一个由七人组成的制度，其中有一个平等之首，这样更容易解决阻碍减少腐败、处理腐败等必要变革的利益问题。环境，减少收入或贫富差距，嗯，所以，我的意思是，无论谁是第一，这些都可能都会发生。是的，我的意思是，我们可以说，国家主席谢志雄或总书记，无论你怎么形容他，他都致力于马克思主义理想，嗯，这有助于解释我们为什么会发生变化。但我不会过分强调政治体系中某位领导人的个人偏好，但我想说，他们在解决他们指出的三个问题上取得了巨大进展，即使就我本人而言，去年我去那里的时候，你也能看出，例如，所有车辆的广泛电气化，所有主要城市的空气质量在过去10年里都得到了显著改善。我认为，如果你在2012年问一个人，他们可能无法想象会发生这种事。没错，这个问题的出发点是，当你看看中国的政治时，许多
外界，比如西方媒体，对中国的了解非常不透明，
以至于它无法将自己充分地传达给外部公众，
因为他们过于专注于与国内沟通，比如与自己的国家沟通。
中国在哪些方面未能很好地向外界传达自己的信息？这部分与政治体制有关，甚至与反腐运动有关。反腐运动的弊端在于，
它使公职人员变得更加保守，更不愿承担风险。所以，
要以一种对中国以外的人有说服力的方式进行沟通，如果你只是说中国有什么好处，而
没有意识到中国存在的问题，那么，
这听起来就像空洞的宣传，不会对人们有说服力。但如果
你……嗯，这就是为什么我们需要一种更能展现中国……的沟通方式。
向外界展示当然，它有很多优点，但也有一些缺点。让我们以更现实、更人性化的方式描绘中国，嗯，这样才能与人们互动，嗯，但由于政治体制中的保守主义，你知道，不是任何时候，而是经常，当记者甚至学者想要描绘一个体制，或者描绘一个更平衡、更现实的中国形象时，他们就会遇到问题，我的意思是审查制度，或者，就记者而言，他们会与当局发生冲突，所以这是问题的一部分，嗯，根源，但私下里人们也认识到这一点，我的意思是，包括政府内部，但嗯，尤其如此，嗯，这不仅在高层，而且在中层。公职人员通常非常规避风险，而且
比较保守，所以即使是我自己的书，好吧，在我最近的书《山东喧嚣》中，我试图展现的是，
即使在中国的公职人员和官僚中，也有很多的人性和幽默感，而且
我试图以相对平衡的方式描绘这一点，嗯，我确实得到了一些
官员的许可，可以在书中进行交流，但嗯，
因为它对事物的描述方式并不完全积极，所以它尚未被
中国大陆接受出版，但在香港又一次被接受，这表明香港的学术自由比主要在中国更自由，但我的意思是，即使我的书，你大概也能看出，我尽可能地
积极地对待那些并非严格受体制约束或在中国土生土长的人们，
如果我的东西遇到麻烦，我可以想象，呃，其他人说，
我的意思是，有迹象表明，事情情况有所改善，我的意思是，即使是最近，嗯，你可能也知道抖音难民的现象，这才发生在过去几周，你知道人们逃离了抖音，
去了沙胡，也就是中国的应用程序，你知道，
还有那么多外国人。现在，因为我们有了便捷的在线翻译方式，所以，
可以更多地交流中国的人性和幽默，包括那些
进展不如预期的事情，这以一种更加平衡和人性化的方式描绘了中国，实际上，我认为这对提升中国的软实力比坦率地说，
官员们试图展示中国好的一面，而不去直面问题时所做的更有帮助。
这只是问题的另一个方面，也是
明云的想法，他们实际上有一个合适的命名惯例，我认为他
指出，他们通常不会试图宣传自己更柔和的形象，甚至他们可能在海外，或者不太熟悉语言差异。一个明显的例子就是

中国的公关问题

2008年北京奥运会开幕式上，一个人物被选为代表中国文化，通常被翻译成“和”。我记得当时我在NBC的英文频道上观看，当时评论员们说，哇，看看这个，这就是中国的“和谐”。他们指着齐步走的士兵说，如果每个人都以同样的方式思考和行动，那真是太可怕了。但任何了解中文和理解“混乱”的人，我的意思是每个知识分子都知道，这句话出自孔子，对吧？这意味着你应该寻求“多元”和“和谐”，而不是“趋同”，“趋同”可以翻译成“一致”或“一致”。所以，中国人的“和谐”理念实际上包含对多样性的热爱，用来表达这一点的比喻非常清楚。例如，如果汤里只有一种配料，比如盐，那就没有味道。嗯，音乐里有那么多元素，但只有一个音符，要让它变得优美，那就太无聊了，我们
必须有很多音符。嗯，即使在政治上，这种理念也被非常明确地运用，如果你是一个统治者，你只听从一种政治观点，那将是灾难的根源，因为你永远无法发现哪里出了问题，也无法纠正它。政治统治者之间必须有多元的观点。这被用来表达“和谐”的理念，所以仅仅因为
这种翻译错误，在英语中，当你想到“和谐”，尤其是在政治环境中，它会触发所有
警钟，听起来像是“一致”或“统一”，这与中文的“和谐”理念完全相反。所以，从根本上来说，最简单的方法就是确保翻译正确，这是一种避免误解的方法。所以，再次强调，在中国文化中，“和谐”的核心思想，我认为我们应该翻译“多样性”和“和谐”之类的词，以防止误解。多年来，政府一直在改变其不同部门的名称一次又一次地更新，对吧？所以我认为，例如，在新加坡，我们有这个相当于aan champo的部门，以前是通讯和信息部，现在是数字发展信息部，因为现在有了更加数字化的维度，可以传递信息。一些政府部门的翻译标签只是申楚，你知道，申楚是最初的宣传部门，现在我认为宣传中的宣传听起来有点重要，我的意思是，它有点像通讯，你知道，会更中立一些，或者统战统一战线，我的意思是战时统一战线指的是联合，你知道，在战时，共产党和国民党会联合起来对抗日本人，现在这个战时术语不合适，我的意思是，我们需要想一个不同的，我认为中文也应该改变，以反映新现实，这不是我们正在谈论的，但它听起来很险恶，你知道，在外面，当你想到这个统一战线部门时，嗯，哪个这其实并非他们的主要工作。即使是党委书记，我在书中也提到过，尤其是在基层政府，他们不会把太多时间花在让人们遵守党的路线上。大多数时间，尤其是在大学，他们把时间花在协调人际关系和做一些非学术性的工作上，这很重要。这又回到了你之前的问题。在西方大学，没有党委书记，这当然在某种程度上是好事，因为这意味着审查较少。但另一方面，如果有一个党委书记负责处理这个问题，那就称之为大学里的社会问题。例如，我在山东大学的时候，发生了一起非常严重的车祸，
然后党委书记不得不安慰孩子的父母。我的意思是，这种事情是好事。如果有这样的工作，我们可以称之为和谐书记。如果我们有这样的职能，它不一定是坏事。当然，如果能摆脱政治审查的影响，理想情况下，嗯，这可能是值得学习的，这并非我的臆想，在中国历史上，心理治疗首次出现了如此巨大的增长。现在的心理治疗师通常是党委书记，因为他们习惯于处理人际关系冲突，并试图以良好的方式协调关系，而且他们拥有同样的技能，这使得他们能够成为有效的心理治疗师。你知道，这些东西都很吸引人。你写了一篇
关于中国50年后或2015年会是什么样子的有趣文章，在文中你提出了一个愿景，即精英管理制度

中国贤能政治与民主的未来

民主可以相互补充，人民可以更广泛地参与政治，但同时你仍然可以找到
称职的公职人员。那么，在一个更加民主、更加贤能的中国，未来会是什么样子呢？
嗯，这很难说，正如你所知，那篇文章相当具有推测性，并且包含一些幽默。那么，未来会涉及什么呢？现在的统治组织
大约有1亿人，也许20年或30年后会是1.2亿人，这是一个非常庞大的组织，内部也必然存在多样性，因此，在统治组织内部有更多民主的空间。如何实现这一点，以及如何将其制度化，
避免引发公开冲突和派系斗争，这是一个非常重要的问题，但它不能被
持续压制。所以我几乎可以肯定，当你谈论这一点时，你会再次意识到这一点。对那些私下里的人来说，我的意思是，在中国，一旦你与人们建立了一定程度的信任，你就能进行非常开放的对话。我认为，人们强烈认识到需要在执政机构内部建立更多的民主，以便所有党员都能在政治体系中拥有某种发言权，而不是那种自上而下的权力。现在，这种权力可以采取不同的形式。我的意思是，可以采取某种抽签制度，即在执政机构内部随机选出人员，因为这已经是一种非常好的质量检查，然后，他们可以在政策上拥有某种发言权。在执政机构内部，可能会有更多的选举机制，更多的审议机制，这是一回事。那么在执政机构之外呢？有一种方法可以……同样重要的是，要让整个政治体系拥有某种持久的合法性，让执政机构之外的人也拥有某种合法性的印记。那会是什么呢？我的意思是，它可以采取不同的形式。我的意思是，这可能是隐性的，
可能是某种我们尚不清楚的人工智能，可以进行
一些磋商，以及在广大民众中进行，嗯，也可能是一场
全民公投，也就是说，你看，你给了我们一个政党30年的
执政时间，足够长，足以做出影响子孙后代的决策，
这使我们能够长期培训和招募人才，并且我们可以处理气候变化等问题，而不必担心
每四五年就选举一次，嗯，但是，在30年后的某个时候，
政治体制会受到某种制约，嗯，而且，在一个更大的范围内，言论自由也会大大增加。我的意思是，如果你和中国的知识分子交谈，就像任何人一样，我在这里要做一个概括性的陈述，但我要说的是，这基本上是正确的，几乎所有50岁以下的人都支持更多的言论自由，嗯，在中国，这几乎是唯一能团结大家的东西。自由主义者、社会主义者、儒家以及其他人士都坚定地致力于言论自由，所以在那些脱离了民主体制的人中，他们拥有更多的言论自由，更多的组织和政治途径，能够表达自己的声音，同时也要认识到，最终，统治组织会做出最终决定，尤其是在重大问题上。我的意思是，这是一种将更强大的民主机制与精英政治体系相结合的方式。你为什么批评“可爱”？表面上看，这真的很奇怪，但东亚文化有这种

对“可爱”的批判

儒家传统中，他们有一个共同点，就是这种“可爱”文化。社交媒体上有很多可爱的动物，比如表情符号。当然，在外面也有一些，但远不及。我的意思是，即使是像我这样的官僚体制中的官员，当我与其他官僚交流时，我总是会使用表情符号和笑脸来表达我的情绪。当我和一位美国一流大学的教授分享这个表情时，我在社交媒体上向他展示了一点。我很快地翻阅了一下，问他大学里有这个吗？他只是淡淡地说“不，不，所以，有这个代码”。这种“cess”文化的好处在于，它是一种交流情绪的方式，可以软化原本僵硬的沟通方式。我的意思是，精英管理的弊端，你也知道，新加坡的情况也一样，它会导致一种高度竞争的社会，人们往往雄心勃勃，害怕失去，害怕失去，嗯，对，没错，这就是精英管理制度的弊端。你总是想领先于雄心勃勃、位居第一的人，但这种精英文化总是在反抗说“不，我们不在乎，我们只想享受生活”。这是一种我们可以指责的语言，一种无忧无虑的生活方式，这是一种非常反差的生活方式，几乎是对这种高度竞争、雄心勃勃的反抗，它起源于日本。正是这些可爱的少女，或者说是少女们，发展出这种可爱文化，并迅速传播到其他国家，这种超级精英管理制度的混乱遗产，在教育、巴解组织体系中也存在，并延伸到经济领域。其弊端是，如果政府官员利用税收来逃避责任，或者在应该做出艰难决定的时候开玩笑，这可能会酿成灾难。我用一个东亚以外的例子来说明，比如鲍里斯·约翰逊。在我看来，他非常有魅力，有些人不明白这一点，我明白。我的意思是，如果我必须和一位政客约会，我很想和鲍里斯·约翰逊约会，他非常有魅力，非常幽默，也很可爱。但说到做决定，他很糟糕，我的意思是他会逃避责任，撒谎。我在担任院长的时候，就看到了自己的这个缺点。有时我会开玩笑，试图装可爱，以此来逃避责任和艰难的决定。这就是这种可爱文化的弊端，也有一些自我批评。新加坡也是如此。如果你观察一下政治格局，我认为我们看到了类似的情况：政客们更多地使用社交媒体，不是为了
传达政策立场或他们必须做的棘手事情，而是为了让自己更受欢迎。所以你会看到他们关注Dan Trends，在官方旅行中带你四处参观，比如去哪里。他们要去哪里，甚至在最近的美国大选中，我想我们也看到了这一点。很多选举营销都更多地关注个性而非政策。所以从某种意义上说，个人的个性掩盖了政策，这或许是对“可爱”的正确批判。
但另一方面，如果你想让自己讨人喜欢，或者展现你作为公职人员的人性，
那就没问题，只要它不会占用你太多时间去做你应该做的事情，也就是思考造福人民的政策，
只要它是一种逃避责任和做出艰难决定的方式，嗯，那么我认为没有什么问题。
你必须找到适合我的风格，你必须表现得恰到好处，我想，没错，金古就是这样。
他私下里真的很迷人，也很可爱，呃，除了
才华横溢、富有创造力之外，我希望有一两次能和他一起出去吃饭，
我希望当时做了笔记，这样我就可以了。讲故事，但我只记得被他迷住了。
这就是人们对他私下的印象，但当他公开露面时，他要严肃得多。
所以可能有一个金牌表情包，因为你必须要严肃，你必须做出艰难的决定，而他没有。
当然也没有用他的可爱来妨碍他们。你自己是加拿大人，你也在中国，所以我想问。
你希望更多人了解中国和加拿大最好的地方是什么？让我先从加拿大说起。我的意思是，
我认为加拿大有两个地方很可爱，一个是蒙特利尔，

文化洞察：加拿大 vs. 中国

我来自蒙特利尔，这座城市很酷，很有创意，也很安全，所以它真正融合了秩序和和谐的精髓，既注重秩序，也热爱多样性。蒙特利尔非常有创意，而且是双语城市，就像新加坡一样。蒙特利尔大多数人会说两种语言，几乎每个人都能完美地掌握法语和英语。双语是一种特殊的体验，你可以更轻松地从他人的角度想象自己。有很多证据表明，双语实际上是对他人产生更多同理心和同情心的重要方式。蒙特利尔的缺点是冬天非常非常冷，我已经很多年没在冬天回去了。除此之外，蒙特利尔是一个很棒的地方，但在东亚，它并不那么出名，因为人们更倾向于去多伦多和温哥华。我强烈地认为，当然，我有偏见，因为我来自那里，但我认为坦白说，这就像加拿大最棒的地方，嗯，另一方面，我，嗯，我们称之为冰球，在加拿大，我们称之为冰球迷，嗯，冰球是一项非常美丽的运动，但它鲜为人知，我的意思是在新加坡，我不知道现在有没有联赛，它是一项真正将伟大、美丽与力量融为一体的运动，嗯，而且观看比赛非常美妙，嗯，我认为，如果你喜欢运动，这也是加拿大最棒的地方，我也喜欢，我喜欢所有运动，但也可能因为我来自蒙特利尔等等，但在我看来，冰球是一项将优雅与力量融为一体的运动，观看比赛非常美妙，他们非常强壮，
不仅传球，而且很会服从别人，甚至当你采访冰球运动员时，他们总是有点困惑，贬低自己，说我做了所有事情对于球队来说，你知道，嗯，嗯，嗯，目前蒙特利尔加拿大人冰球队可能是冰球界最令人兴奋的年轻球队，这是K队目前最好的两个部分，如果我可以这么说的话，嗯，那么
关于中国，嗯，中国是一个多元化的国家，我的意思是，它是一个大陆，而不是一个国家，而且，甚至不仅仅是城市和乡村之间的差异，它们是完全不同的世界，不同的城市也有不同的精神和气质。你知道，上海和北京的人真的非常不同，他们通常不会互相讨厌。表达这一点非常有趣，我写了一本名为《城市精神》的书，嗯，我和我的合著者在《从耶路撒冷到东方》中尝试了这一点，我们试图表达其中的一些内容，然后我又写了一本关于城市精神的中文书，特别是关于中国城市。
再次强调，要了解中国，你必须了解它内部的多样性。中国在国外并不为人所知，即使在山东省，我也对吉南和钦达的区别很大，嗯，探索中国的多样性非常有趣，这在国外并不为人所知，这是中国的一部分，也是日常生活中的人性和幽默，你知道，人们真的认为政治体制是这样的，他们是这样的，我的意思是，政客们非常无聊，而且经常很严厉，但在日常生活中，以及官僚机构的中层，正如我试图在这本新书中展示的那样，有很多人性和幽默，我认为向世界其他地方传达这一点也很重要，如果今天有香港精神，香港精神会是什么样子，所以香港非常迷人，因为嗯

香港精神

它致力于共产主义，这写在基本法里，对吧？我的意思是，虽然香港是共产主义国家，但人们
却在庆祝赚钱，嗯，这通常会以非常丑陋的形式出现。香港存在巨大的贫富差距，他们提到贫富差距，而公共住房中一半的人住在公共住房里，这与新加坡的公共住房相比非常糟糕。所以，共产主义的弊端非常明显。但另一方面，香港有这样的社会秩序，你知道有这样一句话，如果你去美国最穷的地方开劳斯莱斯，你会被石头砸到车窗，但如果你去香港最穷的地方，人们会来欣赏一辆金色的劳斯莱斯。你知道，那里的情况有点奇怪，有点奇怪，我的意思是，人们对财富的尊重在香港非常强烈，但我认为这种尊重目前受到了儒家思想的缓和。呃，精神，我的意思是香港，他们没有经历过革命，所以当然，革命是为了消除混乱，但没有成功，但在香港，没有那种混乱，所以日常的家庭生活很大程度上受到混乱伦理的影响，以及他服务家庭、服务社区的承诺，并在家庭内部扩大这种爱和关怀。外人，你在香港在很大程度上拥有这种精神，所以这再次缓和了资本主义的过度行为，所以如果我试图表达香港的精神，我实际上在那本书中有一章，它应该是这样的，你通常会给你的C什么建议，我的学生非常多样化，你知道，其中一位非常有孔子思想的人，他是教师的老师，他有一个很好的榜样

给即将步入职场的毕业生的建议

在教学中，他有时会根据学生的需求、兴趣等给出相互矛盾的建议。所以，没有普遍适用的建议，我的意思是，必须了解学生的个性，了解他们所有闪光点。
只有这样，我才能按照K的模式再次与学生互动。但是，如果有一个普遍的观点，也就是未来是绝对不确定的，但唯一可以确定的是，如果我们幸运地度过难关，不发生毁灭全人类的战争，那么，它正在经历技术和社会的快速变革。所以，当我在大学的时候，我们会思考，我们想要什么样的工作。有一种假设，一旦你找到工作，就几乎一直到退休，但现在，我的意思是，你知道，在新加坡，我认为新加坡在培养学生应对世界大战方面可能比世界上任何其他地方都做得更好。不断变化的，而且需要不断学习，并准备好在你的一生中尝试完全不同的事情。实际上，就像你教的两节课一样，你实际上认为我读《论语》的框架是正确的，而不是采取一种普遍的观点，而是试图理解每个人的个体背景。K和他的学生，每个学生都是不同的，你基本上把它想象成一架飞机，你必须具备一些背景知识。他在教学生的时候，故意只说他认为正确的部分，然后他希望学生能够自己发展剩下的部分。所以，拥有这种背景知识很重要，了解学生是谁，他们的兴趣是什么，他们在后来的中国历史上以什么而闻名，以及K为什么这么说，然后哪些部分应该通过不断的诠释和重新诠释来填补。这就是为什么Go的呼声有点像它传递了错误的信息，因为学生必须记住部分经典文本，包括《论语》，他们必须记住正确的解释，因为你知道孔子会让人震惊，但没有一个正确的解释，有些解释比其他解释更好，但解释会随着新知识和新挑战而变化，等等，以及谁在什么情况下进行解释，嗯，所以了解这些非常重要，以便理解和欣赏文本，我们能找到你的作品吗？这是你的新书，名叫《在哪里可以找到贝尔教授？》，《山顿的一位中国大学小官僚的自白》，这本书的写作方式试图
展现人性和幽默，并试图从我担任院长的一些经历中得出一些启示。所以这是另一个叫做

哪里可以找到贝尔教授？

这是一本来自山顿的《中国大学小官僚的自白》，这本书的写作方式试图展现人性和幽默感，同时也试图从我担任院长的一些经历中得出一些启示。所以，这本书叫做《中国模式》，它更具学术性，嗯，它试图展示它的内容。
试图系统地讨论什么是贤能政治，它的优点和缺点是什么，以及如何
缩小理想与现实以及中国环境之间的差距。还有一本最近出版的书，叫做《等级制度》，是与黄平合著的。黄平是我在香港大学的同事，实际上也是我的妻子。
所以我们试图表明，任何现代社会都需要等级制度。嗯，我们知道哪些等级制度是坏的，基于种族、性别或阶级，哪些是好的，以及为什么需要对此进行理论化，并展示大量的例子。这就是我们在那本书中试图做到的。所以这些书在
常见的地方都可以买到。亚马逊等等，谢谢教授的到来，谢谢你的参与，我
期待你的播客，我喜欢你的播客，我看了整个
关于 Go Kingu 博士的播客，非常精彩，嗯，我期待听到更多你的播客，也希望学到更多。谢谢你，希望你喜欢丹尼尔·贝尔教授的这一集。
如果你在 YouTube 上观看，我们非常希望你能点击下面的订阅按钮。
如果你在其他平台上收听播客，我们非常希望你能在 Spotify、苹果或其他任何你收听播客的地方给我们一个 fstar 评分。
谢谢你收听 fal 播客，我们希望在下一集节目中与你见面。

How To Understand The New Age of Chinese Politics

2025年2月5日 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPeoqgwFNb8

Keith Yap: Curating Conversations For The Curious | Host of The Front Row Podcast

Daniel A. Bell is Professor, Chair of Political Theory with the Faculty of Law at the University of Hong Kong. 

He once served as Dean of the School of Political Science and Public Administration at Shandong University (Qingdao) from 2017 to 2022.

He specialises in Comparative Political Theories, focusing on Confucianism and Legalism. 

His books include 
The Dean of Shandong (2023),  
Just Hierarchy (co-authored with Wang Pei, 2020), 
The China Model (2015), 
The Spirit of Cities (co-authored with Avner de-Shalit, 2012), 
China’s New Confucianism (2008), 
Beyond Liberal Democracy (2007), 
East Meets West (2000), 
All published by Princeton University Press. 
He is also the author of Communitarianism and Its Critics (Oxford University Press, 1993).

Bell’s latest book, The Dean of Shandong, is an insider’s perspective of Chinese academia and China’s political system.

TIMESTAMPS: 

00:00 Intro
00:50 The Reality of Chinese Academia
06:05 Political Meritocracy As An Alternative Ideal
11:02 Why Scale Matters In Politics
16:30 Corruption and Governance in China
23:20 Legalism in Practice
24:43 The Influence of Confucianism in Chinese Politics
32:58 Marxism in Chinese Politics
43:19 The Myth of The One Man Rule
51:14 China's PR Problems
56:12 Future of Meritocracy and Democracy in China
01:00:04 Critique Of Cuteness
01:04:56 Cultural Insights: Canada vs. China
01:08:49 The Spirit of Hong Kong
01:10:30 Advice for Graduates Entering the Workforce
01:13:03 Where To Find Prof Bell

Intro

today we are talking about the philosophy of Chinese politics Marxism legalism Confucianism these might sound like big words to you when you think about Chinese politics and philosophy but if you want to understand their influence on Chinese politics today this is the viewers for you today I am joined by Professor Daniel Bell he's the first foreign dean of shantong University and in the first

foreign dean of any Chinese University he was previously based in chiu the

hometown of the famous Chinese philosopher confusious as an expert of both Western and Chinese political philosophies he's the best person to help you understand the different philosophies affecting modern China today with that I hope you enjoy my conversation with Professor d one of the first questions I had when I was reading

The Reality of Chinese Academia

your most recent book the dean of shanto was that you draw a comparison or a

contrast between the Western AC academic environment and the Chinese academic environment and most people kind of assume that you know in China it's all censorship there's no academic freedom but you seem to have a different view or different take and different LIF experience from it well there is

censorship so and there's increased censorship in in Mainland CH I don't want to deny that um but there are many

areas where there's tremendous amount of intellectual engagement and argumentation so if you work on

Confucianism for example it's really diverse debates some of which are are very heated for example the latest

debate now is whether is there's an influential article arguing that sex

robots are ideal Confucian wives and as you can imagine there's a furious

reaction from Confucian feminist so that's just an example of so so much uh

lots of debates that don't touch on the highest level of politics can and do flourish and they address issues that

wouldn't be of great interest to to people outside of China where for example the Confucian condition isn't of

great interest to you know or to people from Canada where I'm from um uh and

there's also um less of this kind of worrying about politically correct uh

terminology I mean in now maybe it's changing a bit now with the new Administration in the US but many

academics have felt that they're treading on eggshells when it comes to issues relating to sex or race um but in

China in that sense there's less of this informal censorship so you mentioned my my book the dean of shando so I began

that book by listing all that that's wrong with with China because you have to express those views in order to get

on to what you really want to say there's a kind of informal censorship mechanism where it's very easy for you

to be labeled as a China apologist so you have to begin by first saying you know China is has many human rights

abuses and these things are wrong sure which is of course is all true but only then will people even listen so even

academically if you want to publish an article in an academic periodical and you don't use the

language of authoritarianism to discuss or to describe the Chinese political

system you would get knocked down it' be very hard to get published fortunately publishing in book form is actually

still more free than publishing in article form uh there's less of this informal censorship and and more um room

for um well I'm going to call it original thinking in in the anglophone world another key difference is that in

China there's a very strong commitment to serving the community so the idea that you would do your especially in an

area in Humanities or social sciences that you would just do your own work completely separate from contributing to

the good of the community you know serving in the Ivory Tower there's less of that tradition in China and partly

it's it has to do with the plal system but I think it has much more deeper Roots um you know we can label it

Confucian ideas of the best life and while serving the community but there's much more of a implicit or explicit

assumption that as an academic you're not just there to publish articles and pro truth regardless of the impact on

the community that your work should be more closely tied with contributing to the good of the community yeah so those

are very briefly some differences but it it depends on the field it depends on the period of time uh it depends on

which country we're comparing it to I mean or even on the part of China I mean in Hong Kong now Hong Kong in many ways

is much closer to the kind of Western system where you're you're rewarded

almost exclusively according to your uh publishing record in leading academic

journals and and University Publishers and whether or not you contribute to the community is almost completely

irrelevant when it comes to uh hiring and promotion uh which which is closer to the kind of uh Western model the good

side in Hong Kong is that there's there's much more academic freedom than there is in mainland China Hong Kong in a way is much close of Singapore where

you can more or less do and say what you want so long as it's not about the Hong Kong government I mean my experience in

Singapore I think things have changed in some ways but I still think there's some form of censorship formal informal

regarding Singapore government but other than that it's really a very very free academic environment in Singapore Hong

Kong is a bit similar to that I think in Singapore in the recent years there's been an opening up of spaces for even

critiques to enter the public for agree so my just my first job was in Singapore n Us in 9124 and those days

frankly were not ideal in terms of academic freedom but to write this other

book that I that I wrote called the China model in in China it was very hard to um to address in a kind of balanced

Academic Way some of these politically sensitive issues so I actually I went to Singapore um to spend a semester where I

could have grade libraries in English and Chinese and completely almost complete academic freedom so Singapore

is much much much better than it used to be talking about the China model one of the key assumptions that you've

Political Meritocracy As An Alternative Ideal

challenged is that there is a clear comparison or the way we should compare

governments is between a democracy and autocracy in which the liberal democracy

is clearly the superior alternative my question to you is why do you think that's a false that to me well it's just

that the labels are are so vague um and on the one hand they're descriptive you

know democracy means you select the political leaders by means of free and fair competitive elections and usually

it involves uh liberal values like like rule of law and separation of powers and

protection of individual rights and it's also normative saying that that's a better system uh than the

Alternatives and you know the so but that's such a the both the Democratic

label and the authoritarian label includes so many kinds of diverse forms of government that it's just not very

useful for classifying the political world I mean when I as mentioned my first job was in Singapore and and it

was labeled in the west as a kind of authoritarian government the same Lael was used to describe North Korea you

know and and and Saudi Arabia and so I mean just completely different reck and and the same goes with China I

mean to make to understand the political system you have to understand first of

all what are the motivating ideals and then try to think of to what extent

those ideals I realize in practice and to what extent there's a way of reducing the gap between the the idea and the

reality I had spent all my previous life in Canada and the UK and I was kind of

I'm going to use the word brainwashed um by this view that there's only one legitimate political system and that's

one that selects political leaders by means of free and fair competitive elections along with the associated freedoms and all the others are are are

should be labeled authoritarian and are fundamentally illegitimate and I carried that baggage with me in in

Singapore it took a long time to adjust and maybe I didn't even adjust well in Singapore it took a long time to knock

that kind of Dogma dogmatic view out of my system so to speak but it's only

really when I was in Beijing where I spent eight years at at shinga University and then I realized that well

my colleagues are not talking about um they're they're talking about how do we train how do we select and promote

Leaders with above average ability and virtue how do we measure ability how do we measure virtue what's the relation

between ability and virtue and then I realized that this this this uh this way of thinking has such a long history both

as an ideal in China as and as a and as a institution um and and practice it's

very fascinating to try to make sense of that so so I use a label of political meritocracy in Chinese CH which is more

more more accurate perhaps and I wrote this book The China model which tries to make sense of that ideal shows its

advantage and disadvantages and and suggests ways of reducing the gap between the ideal and the reality so

it's a highly imperfect plal meritocracy just like democracy in for example the US would be highly imperfect democracy

but we need to have a sense of first of all what is the underlying ideal and then it's advantages and disadvantages and think of ways of reducing gap

between ideal and the reality and I wouldn't have had I wouldn't even have come up with that question had I not

spent so many years at a university in Beijing with trains um uh Future Leaders

whereas in Singapore I did spend three years there and I didn't it I I hadn't quite it was a shock to my political

system but it was really hard to get that this this dogmatic view that the signapore political system is fun

fundamentally illegitimate because it doesn't correspond to the sorts of ideals that I had learned as a kid

almost without question um and now I think Singapore is I mean also a

political meritocracy yes imperfect but it's probably the closest to the ideal of any political system in the world

have great great admiration and many of the leaders that you interviewed on your podcast um you know like kisher maani

and and I have great admiration for and in fact even in Singapore when I was there I my worked uh in an office where

where I I knew go King Sweden and went out with him he invited me for and my wife who was working with in his

Institute for meals and my then wife and and I admire him so much but I still

didn't change his dogmatic view that well okay here's a very brilliant and inspiring political Founding Father um

but it didn't still even that didn't knock this kind of dogmatic view out of my system that there's only one

legitimate form government and it's not the one in Singapore I didn't know that so so it's interesting to hear your

roots and experience in Singapore so then going back to the question of political meritocracy what would then be

the ideal version in your mind as to how it should ested SN government so um

Why Scale Matters In Politics

scale matters for politics right and and that's why it's much more important to

have some sort of democratic mechanisms um in smaller political communities this

an Old Point made in in plagal Philosophy by J cuso and others um and

and I there's one example from Singapore which really to to me brought this to my mind I admire Georgio very much and I

was a bit disappointed that he lost um his post in an in an election and

shortly after that I was in a taxi in Singapore and then I I speak to the taxi driver and I said so this really what

happened I mean George he's so outstanding and then taxi driver says I agree he's outstanding and I said and he

said but I didn't vote for him I said what why and he says because he didn't come to my father's funeral I thought oh

my God and I realize only in a very small Plato Community would this be an issue right I mean in China would you

know know presid she could go to everybody's funeral right so so it's

much more important in a small po Community to have um direct relation with one's constituents and have much

much stronger Democratic mechanisms in a large po Community like China this was an example that that brought it home but

China is a huge country right so at different levels of government um

there's there's different ways of selecting and promoting leaders and this is not my own idea it's through

interviews with leaders including members of the including the leader of the Department of organizations U which

selects and promotes leaders in the Chinese political system and I asked them you know which abilities matter

when it comes to selection process which virtues matter and then um I was told well depends on level of government at

lower to Mid levels then there's more it's more important to use what we would

call today Democratic mechanisms as see to what extent the leaders have supported the people um to what extent

um they serve their local community um and and among others whereas admit to

higher levels then the issues of government become much more complex and it's much more important for leaders not

just to be able to implement policies but to think of how to um arrive at

informed policies that affect huge amounts of stakeholders not just the local community but the local country as

well as future generations and and people outside the country and that requires knowledge of economics and and

international relations and philosophy and history and for example if you on environment on on environment on

environmental science um and it also requires a track record of making good political judgments so as you go up the

chain of political command so to speak it's much more important to have more meritocratic uh ways of selecting and

promoting political leaders so the underlying um system

um in in China is to have kind of De Democratic systems of selecting leaders

at lower levels of government and then and then as you go up at higher levels of government it progressively becomes more meritocratic I mean that's the

ideal but in between what do you do well then there's room for experimentation and part of China's success to the

extent their husband success is that there's been lots of innovation and and experimentation at Mid levels of

government when it comes to how to select and promote leaders so then then the question Okay so more or less we

have uh so what does exactly does it mean to have more meritocratic systems of selecting leaders well so for one

thing they it's important for leaders to have above average analytical ability again because the issues are so complex

and it requires a knowledge of many different disciplines and and a very good analytical mind and you can say

many bad things about the Chinese political system but one thing for sure and I think Singapore here is very similar the leaders typically are quite

brilliant I mean it at higher levels of government no doubt about that um but it

also again politics is not like an academic if you're an academic you know and you just stay in your office and

read books or car out experiments that don't deal with other people you can still be successful but in politics you spend much of your time dealing with

stakeholders and and and and and it requires good people skills or EQ um and

it's and it's very hard to get through the system if you lack those so again it's very important at high levels of government to show that you have those

skills and most important of all is to have a certain degree of virtue meaning a willingness to serve the community as

opposed to misusing public resources for your own your family interest um in

other words don't be corrupt and question is how do we assess those skills well again that's where the department of organization is this it's

like the world's largest um Human Resources uh Department uh that that

that's a kind of work they do and yes it's highly imperfect um and it's constant experimentation but that's a

system that's in place and if we want to understand Chinese the Chinese politic system we have to understand that when you talk about the ideal of political

meritocracy actually and you think about it in practice you maybe it might be fair to see that and this is drawing

from the work of like Economist like you right where she talks about the fact that China's been actually meritocratic

for the most part if you think about someone like bosil he did help Propel Ching to like a much more prosperous

State uh but the problem they face is the issue of endemic corrupt so when I

Corruption and Governance in China

uh began to serve as Dean at Shandong University which is the Premier University in Shandong province of

problems of 100 million people um and it was right pretty much at the height of

the anti-corruption campaign so we had to have small offices

not just me but the party secretary whose office was next to me literally uh quite small officers so we literally had

to like dismantle officers and put separate them into two um all the meals

had to be we had to literally record the every dish that we ordered and no

alcohol at public expense um and so there were all these measures in place

that made it quite complicated to spend money um for example which made people

including me more conservative and and less like Innovative and experimental

than we would otherwise have been so this is not a very original point but certainly drawing on my own experience I

can support the point that um excessive let's just say legalist means of dealing

with corruption and making people worrying about making the the wrong steps and being punished for it um tends

to make public officials very risk averse and and conservative in a bad way

meaning that unwilling to consider new challenges and new ways of dealing with those challenges um

which isn't very good frankly for the long-term future of the country so the

most obvious downside of a of a corruption campaign especially one that

involves um harsh means and and makes people fearful of being punished is that

it makes bureaucrats and public officials Keep Their Heads down and and not being as experimental and Innovative

as they would otherwise been and also like frankly um a lot of the uh trust

building um among public officials and between public officials and others

involves um meals and and and and drinking alcohol especially in shanong

Province where where there's a oboke it's the highest per alcohol consumption um per capita alcohol consumption in

China and and it's kind of viewed as part of part of the good life or way of building trust so all that much of that

came to an end because of these very strict um uh anti-corruption measures and makes people a bit more I and

individualistic than they would otherwise be yeah I mean I think it's changing a bit there's kind of less uh

fear punishment and even now for example the rules for um now you when you go out

you don't have to write down every dish and I think beer is allowed on public experence and people aren't so fearful

and worried about taking the wrong steps as they used to be um so it's loosening up a bit but I think there's still a

long way to go um and ultimately there has to be less Reliance on fear of

punishment um as way of controlling corruption and more on other mechanisms including like obviously Singapore

giving higher salaries but China is still relatively poor country so you can have Singapore Stell salaries but a

certain amount of moral self-regulation is important and this is where the confusion tradition has lowed to add as

you spoke about legalism actually I I recall in your book you kind of talk about your running with the law and that

was actually a very interesting anecdote about how the government kind of implemented very harsh measures in fact

what you see legalism and then as time went by it started to use the softer

means of maybe say confusion ISM where you were kind of pushed to self-regulate through moral means I think that's right

and I don't think it should be unfamiliar to Singapore where you know it was known as I meant you know all this stuff as the fine City but now

there's less Reliance on fines people have internalized um for example you shouldn't J JW walk and don't throw out

garbage and so on don't Litter so it's similar in in China where so I'm not against legalism per se I mean sometimes

you do and remember legalism means it's it's it's har it's harsh punishment that's applied rigorously and uniformly

and equally you know with without exceptions and and without taking into consideration of special circumstances

and that might be necessary if there's a serious problem and then and and we want quick results and it could ultimately be

effective in terms of um making Mak people change their their minds and realize I mean so in the case of

drinking and driving for example people knew that it's kind of a bad thing to do but it didn't affect their behavior that

much so what happened in in China about well more than 10 years ago the

statistics were showing there were so many accidents caused by drunk driving and finally the government decided to take it very seriously and in Beijing

for example they just on many street corners they they they did random checks

of uh of people and uh and if they were slightly above the limit they would the cars would be

at leas temporarily confiscated and you wouldn't be allowed to drive for six months so uh at the very very start of

this campaign this this happened to me as well um and and it like just in my

case it worked I mean after that I'd never had a single drop if I was driving alcohol so and then eventually whoop no

need to have uh so many checks and and it changed people's view that even

though that were deep down they knew was a bad thing to drink and dry but eventually these harsh measures were

effective and there was no need to enforce them anymore the same extent and it changed from like legal regulation to

moral self-regulation and and it and it was quite effective so legalism works so

to speak if people already know that something is bad but it doesn't really affect their behavior and if it's a very

short-term temporary way of dealing with with an emergency and it got worse I

mean in the sense of more legalistic shortly after uh the very the start of the campaign I

mean if I had been caught the same way a few months later I would have been sent to jail and no no excuses you know um so

it became even even but then who now it's you drive in Beijing there's very very few alcohol checks you still have

them occasionally but hardly any and yet there's hard there's hardly any drunk drumming anymore and of course there's

other ways of dealing with it too there's a practice now where um if you do drink alcohol and you're driving

there's a service where you phone and and they and then they come a person comes on a bicycle and which is you can

fold put it in in the trunk of the car and they they would drive the car for you so that that's that was a very um uh

effective way also of of of dealing with his problems so on the one hand you have it changes from legal regulation to

moral self-regulation on the other hand you have also practical ways of dealing with it it seems to us that the you know

Legalism in Practice

the harsh loss actually more or less kind of serve as the precursor

to the moral culture that you want to set in the country but again it's not it's not like

the harsh wouldn't work if people don't know deep down that there's something wrong with that you know I mean that's

right so the real precursor is some sort of moral belief that what you're doing

is wrong but just doesn't affect Behavior if the laws come into place and have a hammer over your head then then

it would work so I I so just the real precursor is some sort of some sort of view of of uh you know you're doing

something wrong but it's not that wrong and then that's where the legalist means can come in yeah it's like spitting in

Singapore we all know you shouldn't do it right but then people used to spit a lot on the on on the streets but now

it's pretty much no one really does it and no one really gets f for it as much nowadays exactly or littering yeah or

flushing toilets or whatever so far we've talked a lot about legalism but we also see that Confucianism actually

informs a lot of Chinese political philosophy uh this is where am making a

big ask where I'm asking you to help me sum up the rich thousand years of histories of Confucianism but perhaps

could you illuminate how does Confucianism today inform Chinese politics so um as you say I mean confus

The Influence of Confucianism in Chinese Politics

is a very rich and diverse tradition and if we want to um narrow it down to core

kind of claims um I mean I I I think one thing that if you're fion you basically

you you you have the view that the good life involves nourishing Humane and harmonious social relations and it

sounds kind of trivial who disagrees with that well but you do have other views of the good life right it could be a religious life where you're separating

yourself from the community or from the family um but for the confus no I mean it's really nourishing um Humane social

social relations um but the best possible life is one where you serve the

community as a public official U because that's the way that you can do the most

good is is once you have political power and again it sounds well who disagrees with that well lots of people disagree

with it again some religious ideals saying the best life involves separation from uh the community or for example you

know in Plato's Republic the best life involves um seeking truth and it's only the second choice that you would go back

in the cave and serve the community the the community so the confucians say no the best life is serving the community

and to do that you you I ideally you have you're you're committed to constant

self-improvement um and there's a mechanism that allows for public officials to be selected and promoted

according to their Superior ability and virtue so that ideal has huge influence

in the Chinese political system um throughout history but and most famously

it was institutionalized Al by means of the Kuru the um Imperial examin or or

civil examination system but more recently this ideal has been revived in

the period of economic reform in China where public officials are selected according to their um ability and how do

you measure that well through experience and success at lower levels of government however you measure that and

then through virtue meaning don't be corrupt and you show some willingness to serve the community um so this tradition

of political meritocracy has been very strong ly revived over the past few

decades so people say oh in China there's lots of economic reform but no political reform well no political

reform what does that mean thetic system is completely different from what it was for example in the culture Revolution

now there's a very strong institutionalized and complex bureaucratic system which aims to select

and promote public officials with spe ability and virtue again highly imperfect and constant flux but it's

there um and and it's and the ideal that motivates it is this very old confusion

ideal of theocracy but again it's not distinctly confusion either I mean the moest arguably had a similar view um

even the legalist but the legalists cared only about ability not about virtue right I mean the legalist like

for example shangyang um you know before who had great influence on the ruler who

became the first emperor of China chiner hongi you know he said well how do you how you want to appoint uh the

meritocratic how do you do that well by the numbers of severed heads of enemy soldiers it's a very objective way of

measuring success who and they're very skeptical about virtue I think it's all hypocrisy maybe that's where the

legalist and theist had something in common but no the confusion say no we need both ability and virtue and ability

shouldn't just be military success it should also be serving the community in

in in an effective way in a way that promotes people's well-being so that's one way um and also I mean very concrete

ways in which Confucian values affect the political system I mean think of in chuu which is the home ground of

Confucian culture in Shandong Province public officials are promoted according

to how FAL they are which again also has a long tradition in the in in Chinese

history um how do you measure that well they they would literally interview the parents of the public officials who are

being considered for promotion if the father elderly father mother says my son's or my daughter's not very fill it

would affect their their their chances of promotion in a negative way now

that's you know I'm from Ken I mean that would be crazy in Ken to sing but again in a country where there's this

assumption that Philipi is important um and also it's a way of if people cannot

be kind and and and or have a sense of reverence for and care for their own

parents it's very hard for it to extend that that love and care outside the family so it's it's also a way of

assessing the virtue of Poli officials which is directly confusion but also I

mean now to get to be public official again you have to go through all these hoops and the first hoop is to get in to

a good University and to perform well academically how do you do that well you go through the G call the University

examination system and what's on what is the content of the University examination system well it has it has

some learning of the confusion Classics students have to learn from some some confusious or k have to learn some menes

Ms and to learn some sh and they have to not just memorize it but also H have

have a sense of how to interpret those passages so it's a very concrete ways in

which the Confucian tradition has has a lasting influence uh in in the political

system today sometimes it comes from the bottom of not from the government itself so

there's there's the grave sweeping Festival Ching which is a national

holiday now how did that come about well it wasn't the government that decided would be national holiday was it was

literally tens of millions of people would workers would take the day off to go sweep the graves and pay respect to

their ancestors on that particular day and then finally the government just said you know well you know just we're

just going to make it into a national holiday so some of these forces come from come from the bottom up as well um

can you give his public lecture when he was talking about the no shank with the

scholar is SE to be the highest vocation that won strive to that would be the

ideal life so I suppose in China's political life they'll be quite similar

where the best of most virtuous people should strive to

become politicians so there seems to be a contrast with say in America where the

country as a whole it is culture and emulates or seeks to emulate the capitalist where Talon overwhelmingly

concentrates itself in the capitalist sector huh what do you think of that

view I I think that's right but remember China is a very diverse country so the confusion influence is stronger in

Shandon Province and and related parts of China if you go in the South there's

much more entrepreneurial and it's much closer to this idea that the way to achieve success is by is by making money

and again this is very concrete way so the lucky number in most of China especially the south is is the number

eight right because it sounds like the you know B and fat it sounds like making

money on license plates and phones you would want to see lucky number eight I think it's similar in Singapore right if

I'm not mistaken but in Shandon Province the lucky number is seven why because

there's this saying CH bashia so if you are 57 years old and you're in the and

you're in the government you still have a hope of being promoted but if you're 58 you're basically on the way down so

in in my University to have a you an office with a number seven would be more prestigious than one with number eight

licensed placeat in Shandon Province you have people fight to have the number seven also in phone numbers so again

China is very diverse and this kind of idea that the best life is the life of the scholar especially the scholar

official is stronger in the parts of China that are more influenced by the by the Confucian tradition then it brings

Marxism in Chinese Politics

me to my next question the influence of like Marxism in Chinese in in Chinese

politics today I think most western commentators or the Western media has a very crude view so they kind of see the

Communists and they equate communism with suppression with the lack of political rights and they see as a

complete State Control what would be the more nuanced State here so it it depends I mean the Communist tradition also is

very diverse so it's like the Confucian tradition although arguably well arguably quite new and and less diverse

but so you have Marx's own original vision of Communism which was that um

the problem with capitalism is that Capital obviously is owned by capitalists and the massive workers have

to work to make money so work is a means to life rather than life's Prime want um and we should move towards a society

where the workers are not forced to work as a means to life how do you do that well ultimately by developing the uh

economy so that there's Advanced Machinery which does a socially necessary work and then the people of

basic needs are met and then they're free to realize their crit talents how do you do that well you have to go through capitalist process this is

Marx's own view Marx's own theory of History because only through capitalism can you develop the technology and the

ability to use that technology um in an effective way because capitalists need to compete with each other to make

profit and the way to do that um is by having improving technology so as a

byproduct of this capitalism you have increased uh technology better machinery

and eventually we reach a point where according to Marx um capitalism can be overun we can move towards a communist

system where um the the technology is basic is basically owned by the people

and people are and the socially necessary work is done by the machines and then people are cre

to realize their creative talents so that's the idea and now in China Marxism

is making a bit of a comeback because there's this pretty optimistic view about AI that will allow us not now but

decades from now if it's managed in a way that's socially beneficial or regulated in a way that's socially

beneficial it could maybe we could several decades from now have the possibility where Advanced Machinery

that's a socially necessary work the dirty dangerous repetitive work that people wouldn't want to do if they didn't have to and then we all free to

realize cre Talent so this is one reason why Marxism is being revived in China now as well because this Marxist ideal

of Communism seems to be more of a possibility now D shaing had it right we need to go through capitalism develop

productive forces but that's only a means eventually we we need to move on towards a more communist Society so

that's one reason why communism is making come back as well now again it's not the same as the confusion ideal the

confusion ideal to repeat is it's through harmonious and Humane social relation that's how we we realize our

creative Essence which needn't involve creative work but for the Marxist it's really through creative work that we we

realize our creative Essences so how do we reconcile those two I mean in practice they they might conflict right

I mean when I present some of these ideas in M China you know once I had a young woman came up to me and says you

know it's not so abstract I feel this tension I mean on the one hand I want to realize myself through work on the other

hand I I owe obligations to my elderly parents and they come into conflict and TimeWise and energy wise and how do I

manage that so there there's there is a they don't there's no harmonious necessarily harmonious way of dealing

with this issue but both I think both ideals are important and and if you want

to understand the Chinese political system and the kind of ideals and Military I think we need to understand both of those now another kind of more

historical point about Marxism is that why did it um why did it really uh

become the dominant ideology in China and one reason is that for for Marx

again and I think this is pretty much all marxists would agree upon this the ultimate a of Garmin or at least the

most important was to provide for the material wellbeing of people um and and

that idea goes way back I mean that the confucians had this view a long long time ago even menes who's known to be

the most ideal of the confucians he said well first people have to have a stable kind of sometimes hung is transl as

property or basic material needs and then they can be moral because how can you be moral if you're always struggling for Necessities I mean That's a classic

Marxist Point as well first you provide the basic material needs of people and then they can exercise their morality

they can care about other people's well-being and and have obligations to society beyond the family and so on so

so there's this very kind of and and throughout Chinese history the governments have had a strong view of we

need to deal with famine we need to deal with poverty way before Western governments had even considered this

view that one obligation of dealing with with uh of government is to levate Poverty that's a relatively new idea in

the west like three or 400 years old but in China goes way back to the early confusions um that's one reason why

Marxism also I think um took hold in the 20th century in China now of course the

Dark Side too is that you know the the leninist view of of the Marxist

tradition I mean on the one hand um it's that you need a strong central uh organization to rule the country on the

other hand we can rely on Extreme uh measures to purge political opponents

that view also had strong influence especially in Wartime right I mean one of the reasons why you know frankly why

why the Communists won let's say first say in the Civil War they ging down is that they had a a much stronger leninist

organization more effective where what the leader said was transmitted to the bottom and and it worked and sometimes

it was pretty harsh measures of dealing with opponents and in a war time that might be an effective strategy but once

you start ruling a country in times of peace then that kind of approach can

often lead to disasters as happen in in subsequent 19 the full question that

herry with regards to Marxism was that you know there's this view that the state will fade away that when once you

reach uh once you've extracted everything you can once your Machinery is so Advanced the state will fade away

but in China you argue that that's not going to be the case uh that the state is going to playay continue playing a

very strong hand even in the ideal version of itself fly so markx didn't

anticip at several developments that now are obvious to us one is that he was very optimistic about machinery and

technology and he thought Machinery could eventually reach a point where we do the socially necessary work but he

didn't anticipate the possibility that Machinery could become so Advanced that it could have dominate human beings and

even to the point of posing an existential threat to human beings and now with the development of AI I mean it is something that we worry about so

there's a very strong need for a state to regulate AI so that so to ensure that

AI serves human needs and without and to prevent the possibility or at least to minimize the risk that AI deals to the

point where it can POS an existential threat to human where makes us slaves as opposed to technology being the slaves

or let's just slave is an extreme term I mean ideally machinery would serve human

beings rather than the other way around and there's a need for a state to ensure that possibility that's one thing also

issues like climate change again Marx didn't couldn't anticipate or at least he didn't anticipate that technology

would would reach a point where it develops to such a point that it that it could uh destroy the environment and and

create an an an atmosphere whereby um an environment would again pose an exential

threat to human beings in form of for example climate change and global warming so to regulate that too we need

a strong stay obviously Atomic uh you know nuclear weapons I mean that is an essential threat we need a state to

regulate nuclear weapons um today of course we think of pandemics too you know we need a state to to deal with

that so for all those reasons there are these existential threats out there that Marx couldn't anticipate uh there's and

this and marks thought once we have Advanced Machinery and people's basic needs are being taken care we don't need

a state because the main State the main point of state is to exercise coercion especially in the benefit of the ruling

class but if there's no ruling class um then there's no need for a course of State anymore it'll wither away well now

we know even if there's Advanced Machinery and and and social and

material equality between people but there's still going to be a need for a straight A sory a state at least with

the ability to to prevent existential threats from becoming uh serious the

state is really there to kind of provide the guard RS to ensure that you the

means of production isn't actually turn against you I suppose sure yes that that's that's part that's part of but I

mean also not just the provide the the guard Wales but to try to ensure I mean until we reach the state where there is

this kind of higher communist Society where people's basic material needs are met um because of Advanced Machinery but

to try to steer technological development in a way that is beneficial to human beings meaning that the

technology serves the people as opposed to the way around until we reach this state of higher communism there's going

to be a need for a more active state to try to ensure that the technology serves

the people rather than the other way around fast forward to today when we look at someone like presidency and his

policies we see two Keystone policies uh the strong nation which is the Dual

circulation track where he's trying to strengthen the domestic economy of China by strengthening it consumption by

strengthening its domestic consumption and at the same time you have the go for you the common Prosperity Drive that

he's been implementing in his policies from the outside it seems that you know this seems to be a more much more

Marxist government in a sense that is trying to redistribute wealth to the WAN

class much more aggressively but how much of it can we attribute to presidency himself and how much of it do

we actually attribute to the larger policy organ which is the CPC I think there's a tendency uh to think that it's

just one person who decides everything in the Chinese political system I mean

The Myth of The One Man Rule

in 2012 there were three major issues or challenges um for China One is that

corruption was completely out of hand and it was really posing a threat to the political system there was to get into

schools or hospitals to get access Public Services you had to pay bribes it was really infuriating the people that's

one issue two the economic was so rapid that it led to huge gap between rich and

poor and again which led to a lot of um resentment

against the rich and and some some feeling that the system was being unequal uh in terms of people didn't

have any more equal opportunities to compete and and and and to flourish in the way that there was before and three

there was a huge uh Economic Development had this environmentally catastrophic

consequences I mean it was you know in Beijing you where where I lived at the time and it was really terrible the the

pollution was completely out of control and it affected people's everyday lives and those through much of China you know

terrible water quality and so on so these were the three problems that had to be dealt with it didn't matter who

was the number one these issues would have been dealt with uh and that's more or less what happened since 201112

there's been much more on on reducing corruption much mores on reducing uh

income gaps and G emission poor and promoting more equal opportunity for people from impoverished and

disadvantaged areas and and much stronger measures to deal with environmental sustainability so um the

current leader is of course he's the first among equals and the poit bureau

the standing committee was changed in a way because before 201112 there were nine leaders in the standing committee

and each one basically controlled part of the system and had veto power over anything that affected you know their

interest so it was very hard to get things done because there were many you know veto Powers uh in in the political

system so the So eventually has moved towards a system where there were seven people in sing committee with a first

among equals and it was easier to tackle bested interest that blocked necessary change in terms of reducing of

corruption dealing with environment and reducing income or gaps between rich and poor um and and so

again I mean it's all that probably would have happened regardless of who was the

number one you know so I yes I mean we can say that president shei or general

secretary she however you wanted describe him is committed to to Marxist

ideals um and that helps to as part of the explanation for why we have had changes but I wouldn't put too much um

you know weight upon the personal preferences of one leader in the political

system but I would say that uh they've made tremendous progress in tackling the three issues they pointed out even for

myself when I went there in the past year you could tell that for example the widespread electrification of all his

Vehicles the quality of air in all your major Urban C cities have pretty much

improved significantly just within the past 10 years and I think that's something that if you ask someone in

2012 whe that would happen they probably couldn't imagine that that's right the off of the question would be then you

know when you look at the politics of China to many

Outsiders uh Western media for example uh it's very opaque China in a sense

that it has not been able to translate itself to be sufficiently intelligible

to outside public because they've been so focus on communicating inwards maybe to their own country what are some

examples in which China hasn't translated itself well to the outside War it's related partly to the um

political system and even to the anti-corruption campaign again the downside of the anti-corruption campaign

is that it makes public officials more conservative and risk averse so uh to

communicate in a way that's persuasive to people outside of China if all you do is say what's great about China and you

don't and you don't recognize uh that there are problems um and and then it

sounds like empty propaganda and that's not going to be persuasive to people but if

you um so that's why there's a need for a more a form of communication that

shows uh that China of course has lots of good things about it but also some bad things and and let's let's portray

China in a more realistic way in a more humane way that um that that engages wi with with people um but because of this

um conservatism in the political system anytime you know not anytime but often

when journalists or even academics want to portray a a system or on the portray

of a picture of China that is a bit more balanced and realistic well then they

run into problems I mean censorship or or in the case of journalists they get

um they run into trouble with the authorities so this is part of the

source of of the issue but in private people recognize that I mean including in the government but it's um especially

it's not just at the higher levels but at the mid tier levels public officials are often very risk averse and

conservative so just even my own book right okay so part of what I tried to

show um in my recent book The din Shandong I try to show that how much of

China you know how much even among public officials and bureaucrats there's a lot of humanity and humor and and and

I try to portray that in relatively balanced way um and I did get some

permission to do that and to communicate in the book by certain officials but um

because it also portrays things in a way that's not toly positive it has yet to be um accepted in as a publication in

mainland China it has in Hong Kong again which shows that Hong Kong has more academic freedom than than mainly in

China but I mean if even my book and you can probably tell I'm like you know as

positive as you can be among you know people who are not you know strictly in the system or or born and bred in China

if if even my stuff runs into trouble I me can imagine uh others that said I

mean there are indications that things are improving a bit I mean even very recently um you probably know this

phenomenon of Tik Tock refugees it's only happened the past few weeks you know people have fled Tik Tock and and

gone to a shahu which which which is which which is the Chinese app you know

and and and so many foreigners and now because we have uh easy ways of translating online so there so there's

more uh communic ation of the humanity and humor of China including things that

are not going as well as they as they should which portrays China in a more balanced and humane way which actually I

think does much more to promote China's soft power than than what frankly what

officials do when they try to you do when they try to show the good side of China in in without confronting the

problems just other aspect of it which is also the the idea of uh having the

Ming Yun right where they actually have a proper naming conventions I think he

pointed that out that they often don't try to promote a softer image of itself even overseas or they maybe are not too

familiar with the linguistic differences one clear example of that is um in the

China's PR Problems

20008 opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics there was one character that

was chosen to represent Chinese culture and it's a character you know which is

usually translated Harmony and I remember when I was watching it on I think it was NBC in English and the

commentators was saying wow look at this this is this is Chinese Harmony and they were pointing to the soldiers who were

all marching up and down in unison they said this is this is pretty scary to have everybody thinking and acting in

the same way but anybody who knows anything about Chinese and about confusion I mean every intellectual

knows it's saying from the anex of confucious right you know which means that you you

should seek which we can translate which we can translate as diversity and Harmony

rather than pong which we can translate as sness or or uniformity or Conformity

so the Chinese idea of Harmony is that it includes in fact it's a love of

diversity and and the metaphors that are used to express this show this very clearly for example a soup that has only

one ingredient like salt will not taste well you have that many ingredients music that has only one note it's going to be boring to make it beautiful we

have to have many notes um and even in politics this this idea of was used in a

way very explicitly saying that if you're a ruler and you only and you only listen to One political view that's a

recipe for disaster because you'll never find out what goes wrong and be able to correct it you have to have diverse views among political rulers and this

was used as a as a way of showing the idea of of Harmony so just because of

this mistranslation that in English when you think of Harmony especially in a political setting it triggers off all

these alarm Bells it sounds like Conformity or uniformity or sess which is exactly the opposite of this Chinese

idea of Harmony so just at the very you know bottom this is the easiest thing to do is to get the translations right is a

way preventing misund understanding so again the central idea of CH in in

Chinese culture I think we should translate something like diversity and Harmony to prevent

misunderstandings over the years the government has changed its name for different Ministries time and time again

to refresh itself right so I think for example we have this aan champo equivalent in Singapore be which would

have previously been the ministry of communication and information uh as now the ministry of digital development

information because now you have a much more digital Dimension where you transmit information some of the labels

for the translations of the government Ministries are just you know Shen Tru as you know was origin's propaganda and now

I think it's publicity within publicity sounds a bit pajor I mean it's something like communication you know would be a

bit more neutral or or tongjan united front I mean in Wartime united front

that refers to United you know that when they this was in Wartime right the the Communists and the and the guing would

be United to confront the Japanese now this this wartime terminology is not appropriate I mean we need to think of a

different well I think should be changed also in Chinese you know to reflect in New Reality that's not what we're

talking about but it sounds so Sinister you know on the outside when you think of this united front Department um which

which is not really the bulk of what they do even the the party secretary again I mentioned that in the in the

book especially at lower levels of government they don't spend much of most even most of their time on you know

making people follow the party line Mo most of the time especially in universities it's me it's they spend

their time smoothing out human relations and doing the kind of non-academic work which is important so this goes back to

your earlier question in Western universities you don't have party secretaries which of course is good in a

way because it means there's less censorship but it but on the other hand if there's a party secretary who's in

charge of this just call it social problems at the University you know for

example at where I was at shanong University we had a a very serious incident of involving a car accident and

then the party secretary had to comfort the parents I mean that sort of thing is a good thing you know and and if you

have that we can we can call them I mean Harmony secretaries you know if we have that sort of function it wouldn't

necessarily A Bad Thing of course stripped of the political censorship uh role ideally um it might be something to

learn from and it's it's not and it's not just my own imagination at the first time in Chinese history um this huge

increase of psychotherapy who are the therapists often now initially they were party secretaries is because they're

used to dealing with human conflict and trying to harmonize relations in a good way and then they had the same sorts of

skills which allow them to be effective therapist you know it's quite fascinating all this stuff you wrote an

interesting essay about how China will like in 50 years time or in 20150 and in it you pin a vision where meritocracy

Future of Meritocracy and Democracy in China

and democracy could complement each other where people could participate in

politics on a much more wider scale but at the same time you could still get

competent public officials now what would that look like for a for a meritocratic and more democratic China

in the future well it's hard to know so as you know that essay was quite speculative and and involve a certain

amount of humor what would it involve well so the ruling organization now is

about 100 million people maybe in 20 or 30 years time it'll be 120 million people so that's very that's a a a huge

organization which also has a lot of necessarily a lot of internal diversity so there's there's room for having much

more democracy within the ruling organization how that would come about and how that could be institutionalized

in a way that doesn't lead to open conflict and factions is is a very important issue but it can't be

constantly suppressed so I'm almost certain one of the things that and again you get this when you talk to people off

the record I mean in China you know once you have a certain amount of trust with people people you get very open

conversation and I think there's a very strong recognition of the need for um a much more democracy within the ruling

organization so that all party members have some sort of say in the political system in a way that is less kind of

topped down now that could take different forms I mean there could be some sort of sortition whereby people

are selected at random within the r organization because it's already a very good quality check and and then could

have some sort of say uh in policym there might be more electoral mechanisms within the ruling organization um more

mechanisms for deliberation that's one thing what about outside the ruling organization well there's a way there's

it's also important to have some sort of um longlasting legitimacy to for the whole political system to have some sort

of um stamp of legitimacy by um the those who are outside the ruling

organization as well what could that be well I mean it could take different forms I mean it could be implicit it

could be some some form of um um AI that we don't know yet that would allow for

some consultation and and um among among the people at large um it could be a

referendum for that would say look we you give us as a party 30 years of

ruling time long longterm enough to make decisions that affect future generations

and that allows us to train and recruit people for the long term and that we could deal with issues like climate change without have worrying about being

elected every every four or five years um but yet at some point 30 years later

there's some sort of check on the political system also some um and and having much more freedom of speech

inside a large I mean one thing if you talk to intellectuals in China like anybody I I'm gonna make a sweeping

statement here but I'm it's like I'm gonna say largely true almost anybody

under like 50 years old favors more freedom of speech um in China it's

almost the only thing that unites liberals and socialists and confucians and others is strong commitment to

freedom of speech so it's so among those who are outside the plagal system there's more freedom of speech more ways

of of organizing and and and and politically and making their voices known while recognizing that ultimately

it's the ruling organization that makes a fineral decision especially on on big issues I mean that's that's one way of

having um stronger Democratic mechanisms combined with a meritocratic political

system why is your critique of cuteness it's really odd on the face of it um but East Asian cultures that have this

Critique Of Cuteness

Confucian Heritage one thing they have in common is this culture of cuteness

where you have a lot of um cute animals in in in social media um emojis of

course you have that certain extent outside but not nearly to the same extent I mean even as a bureaucrat in

the plagal system like myself when I communicate with other bureaucrats I would always use emojis and happy faces

as a way of communicating my my emotions and when I shared this with a professor who was at a at a leading University in

the US I showed I showed him a little bit in my social media Scrolls just very quickly I said do you have this at University he just SL says no no

definitely not so so there is this this code so the good side of this culture of cess is that it's a way of communicating

your emotions and softening the otherwise hard-edged kind of uh communication I mean the downside of

meritocracy and you you know this very much in Singapore as well is that it it makes it leads to a kind of hyperco

competitive Society where people are often very ambitious and and and afraid

of losing pasu afraid of losing uh kasu right exactly so that's the downside of

this meritocracy right you always want to be ahead of people being ambitious and number one but this culture of cist

is always a kind of rebelling against saying no we don't care we just want to enjoy ourselves and and it's a kind of

we can accuse the language of dosm a kind of um Carefree way of life which is a very Counterpoint almost rebelling

against this hyper competitive ambitious and no not coin it started in in Japan

it's this cute teenage well I should say teenage girls who develop this culture of cuteness that spread rapidly to other

countries with a confusion Heritage in this super meritocratic uh kind of ways

which you have in the educational the PLO system C extend in the economy as well the downside of that is that if you

have people who are public officials who who uses cess as a way of evading

responsibility or making jokes when you should be making hard decisions that's can be recipe for

disaster and I use an example from outside East Asia Boris Johnson I mean to my mind he he was very Charming some

people don't get this I get it I mean if I had to go out you know on a with a politician I would love to go out with

with Boris Johnson very Charming very humorous and cute you know but when it

comes to making decisions he was horrible I mean he would he would evade responsibility and lie and I saw that

flaw in myself when I served as Dean sometimes I tended to you know make make jokes and and try to be cute as a way of

evading responsibility and hard decisions so that's the downside of this culture of cuteness and there was a bit

of self-criticism uh in in in this as well and Singapore If You observe the

political landscape I think we see a similar thing where politicians are using social media more not as a way to

kind of communicate policy stances or difficult things they have to do but more as a way to endear themselves right

so you see kind of them they following on Dan Trends and going on uh on the

official trips they will go and show you around like where where they're going and even in the most recent American

elections I think we see that as well where a lot of the the election kind of

marketing has been run on the aspect of the personality more more than the

policy so the person personality in a sense outshines the policy and that perhaps is a right critique of cuteness

but on the other hand it's not if you want to endear yourself or show that you're human side as a public official

that's okay right so long as it doesn't take too much time away from what you should be doing which is thinking of policies that benefit the people and so

long as it's l a way of evading responsibility and taking hard decisions um that then I don't see anything wrong

with that you have to find the go to me you have to be appropriately cute I guess right right go kingu had that he

he was so charming and and and cute in maybe in private uh besides being

brilliant and creative I wish once or twice I went out for meals with him I

wish that had taken notes and so that I could tell the stories but I just remember being so Charmed by by by him

that's that's that's what people remember him as well person privately but when he was out public he was much more

serious so probably had the golden meme because you have to be you take hard decisions and he didn't certainly didn't

use his cuteness to get in the way of them you're a Canadian yourself and you're also in China so I wanted to ask

you what's the best part about China and Canada you wish more people know about let me start with Canada I mean so for

Canada I think there's two parts that I think are lovely one is Montreal where

Cultural Insights: Canada vs. China

I'm from it's a city which is such a cool and creative City that's also safe

so it really combines the best of this um order and and and Harmony both in the

sense of order and love of diversity and and it's super creative and it's

bilingual I mean it's like is Singapore you know most people speak two languages in Montreal almost everybody's perfectly

bilingual French and English and bilingualism is a special means you can you can imagine yourself through

other people's perspective in a much easier way so there's a lot of evidence that bilingualism actually is is is is a

important way to have more empathy and compassion for the people so so you have that in Montreal the downside mon is

very very cold in the winter so I haven't been back in in the winter in in many years but other than that it's it's

a wonderful place and it's not as well known in East Asia because people tend to go to Toronto

and and Vancouver I I I would strongly um of course I'm biased I'm from there

um but I think that's like the best part of Canada to be frank um the other part

of course is that I'm I'm uh what we call ice hockey I mean Canada we just call it hockey fan um and again hockey

is such a beautiful sport and it's hardly well known it's I mean in Singapore I I I I don't know if there

was a league in this now it's a sport that really combines great and Beauty with power um

and and it's beautiful to watch um and and that's that's that's really I think

the best part of Canada as well if you like sports and which which I do and I

like all sports but again maybe because I'm from Montreal and so on but hockey is to my mind the sport that combines

this this kind of gracefulness this with with with power and it's absolutely beautiful to watch and they're strong as

just on passing and being and deferring to other people and even when you interview hockey players they're always

Mo I mean kind of almost confusion putting themselves down and saying I'm doing all this for the team you know um

it's it's uh and and at the moment the Montreal Canadians hockey team is is perhaps the most exciting young team in

hockey those are the two best parts of K at the moment if I can say that um so

about China well China is a diversity I mean it's such it's a it's a continent not a country and and and even it's not

just the difference between the city and the rural areas which you're completely different worlds but different cities

also have different ethoses and and spirits and you know the people in in Shanghai and Beijing are really very

different and often they don't they dislike each other and and it's very interesting to articulate that I wrote a

book called The Spirit of cities and um where I tried with it along with my co-author called the shal from Jerusalem

to where we try to articulate some of this and so and then a subsequent followup book in Chinese about the spirit of cities manly in Chinese cities

again to understand China you have to it's it's this diversity within China which is not well known outside I mean

even in Shandong Province I differ between ginan and chinda are huge um and

and it's quite fascinating to explore the diversity of China which is not as well known outside of China that's one

uh part of China as well as just the humanity and humor of everyday life you know which is really people think the

plal system and they're so it's true I mean the politicians are so deadly boring and Stern often but it's at the

at everyday life and as well as mid levels of the bureaucracy as I try to show in this latest book there's so much

humanity and humor I I think it's very important to communicate that as well to the rest of the world if there was a

spirit of Hong Kong today what would the spirit of Hong Kong look like so Hong Kong is quite fascinating because um

The Spirit of Hong Kong

it's it's committed to cism and it's in the basic law right I mean it's in a communist country but so there's a

celebration of of of of making money um and which which can often take very ugly

forms and in in Hong Kong there is a huge gap they mention poor and and the public housing half the people live in

public housing is terrible compared to the public housing in Singapore so there the downside of cism is very very clear

but on the other hand you have this kind of social order and you know there's this saying you know that if you go to

if you like drive a Rolls-Royce in the poorest parts of the US you would get rocks thrown your window but in if you

go the poorest parts of Hong Kong and a kind of gold Rolls-Royce people would come and admire it you know there

there's kind of odd kind of well odd I mean there's there's this respect for

for the for wealth which is quite powerful in Hong Kong but I think it's moderated at the day by this kind of

Confucian uh ethos I mean Hong Kong they didn't go through the revolution so of course in the Revolution was this

attempt to destroy confusion which was not successful for but in h there wasn't that so the

everyday family life is very much informed by by confusion ethics and his

commitment to serve the family and serve the community and expand this kind of love and care within the family

Outsiders you have that in Hong Kong to a strong extent so this again this moderates the excesses of capitalism so

if I were to try to articulate the ethos of Hong Kong which I did actually there's a chapter in that book it would

be somewhere along those lines what advice do you usually give to your C is the anable for so my my students are

very diverse you know and one of the so confucious kza he was a teacher of teachers and he had a wonderful model of

Advice for Graduates Entering the Workforce

teaching um where by sometimes he would give contradictory advice to different students depending upon what their needs

and interests are and and what and um so so there's no general advice I mean it

it have to know what who the student is in all his or her glorious individuality

and only then um you know would I be able to engage um with a student again following K's model um but if there's

one General point which is I mean the future is absolutely uncertain but the only thing for certain if we're lucky to

get through it without you know war that destroys all of humanity um is that it's

it's committed a very rapid change both technological and social so when I was

at when I was in university you know we would think well what kind of job do we want there's this kind of assumption once you find a job that's it pretty

much until you retire but now I mean again you know this in Singapore I think Singapore is doing probably better than

any other place in the world at preparing um students for World of constant change and and it's there's

there's a need for constant learning and and be ready to do completely different things throughout the course of your

life actually in that like you taught two lessons you actually uh thought me the right frame to read the Lun to read

the analects which is not to kind of take a general View and try to appreciate the individual context of

each uh is K and his students and each student is different and you basically

you think of it like a plane and you have to have have a bit of background knowledge and he deliberately when he teaches the students he he only says

part of what he thinks is is correct and then he hopes that students will will develop the rest on their own so it's

it's important to have that sort of background knowledge of who the students are what their interests are what they're famous for you know in

subsequent Chinese history and why K is saying this teach to and then what part should be filled in

through constant interpretations and reinterpretations that's why the go call is a little bit it sends the wrong

message because students have to memorize parts of classic text including the the anex luu and they have to

memorize the correct interpretation for you know Kung would be shock but there's no one correct interpretation some are

better than others but the interpretations change over time based upon new knowledge and new challenges

and so on as well as who's doing the interpreting in what context they in um so it's very important to have knowledge

of that to try to make sense and to enjoy the text that probably can we find your work this is the latest book called

Where To Find Prof Bell

A de of Shandon Confessions of a minor bureaucrat at a Chinese University and that's written in a way that tries to

show the humanity and humor as well as trying to draw some implications from from some of my experiences serving as

Dean so this is another one called the China model which is much more academic um and uh which tries to show what it

tries to discuss in a systematic way what political meritocracy is what are its advantages and disadvantages and how

to reduce the gap between ideal and reality and the Chinese setting and then this is another book recent one called just hierarchy co-written with Wong P

who's my colleague at and also wife actually at University of Hong Kong and

so we we try to show that any modern society needs hierarchies uh we know which ones are bad based on race or sex

or class which ones are good and why there's a need to theorize about that and to show lots of examples that's how

we tried to do in in that book so these books are um you know available in the

usual places Amazon and so on was that thank you Prof for coming on oh thank you for for this engagement and and I

look forward to to your own I love your your podcast and I watched the whole one

with uh about Dr go kingu which was wonderful um and I look forward to more

of you of your podcasts and and to learning more thank you I hope you enjoyed the episode with Professor

Daniel Bell if you're watching this on YouTube we would greatly appreciate if you could hit that subscribe button down

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