Jeffrey Sachs 中国如何成为一个成功的国家

杰弗里·萨克斯揭示中国如何成为一个成功的国家

亚洲崛起 2025年6月9日

在这场精彩的演讲中，杰弗里·萨克斯教授打破了关于民主与威权主义的常见迷思，并解释了为什么衡量一个政府的真正标准并非其标签，而是其服务人民的成效。他深入探讨了中国的崛起，并揭示了其在全球舞台上取得非凡成就的关键原因。无论您是否认同，这种视角都必将促使您重新思考我们如何评判不同的政治体制。

女士们，先生们，下午好！马来西亚房屋及地方政府部长 Juan Michelle Mei 先生，苏班加亚选区州立法议会议员；Jeffrey Chia 博士，双威大学创始人名誉校长，双威集团创始人兼董事长；Jeffrey Saxs 教授；Jeffrey Chia 爵士，双威大学荣誉杰出教授，联合国可持续发展解决方案网络主席；Dutri 教授，双威大学副校长；Elizabeth Lee 博士，双威教育集团首席执行官；Sibbrandes Poppa 教授，双威大学校长；尊敬的来宾、外交官、同事、媒体人士、朋友们；以及今天下午加入我们的各位嘉宾，感谢各位的光临。我叫 Daniel Rahman，是亚洲战略与领导力研究所（ASN）的首席执行官。我很高兴主持今天的对话。尊敬的来宾们，女士们各位先生，今天与杰弗里·萨克斯教授的对话题为“全球秩序变迁中的东盟”，由双威大学和杰弗里·萨克斯可持续发展中心共同主导，所有这些中心均由杰弗里·查基金会所有和管理。双威大学成立于2011年，自豪地被评为东盟第一的非政府关联私立大学，并在2025年泰晤士高等教育亚洲大学排名中升至第141位，这是其最高排名。但最重要的是，作为一所非营利性研究型大学，双威大学致力于开展富有影响力的研究和可持续发展驱动的创新，并得到世界一流合作伙伴的支持。其独特的地理位置位于马来西亚智能、可持续和绿色城镇的典范——双威城。马来西亚今年担任东盟轮值主席国，这也是我们大家相聚于此的原因。东盟峰会将于下周或即将举行，当然，愿交通对我们所有人友好。我们认为，听取像杰弗里·查教授这样的全球思想领袖的意见至关重要。萨克斯教授几十年来一直影响着国际发展话语，今天能邀请到他，我深感荣幸。女士们，先生们，现在，哦，对了，请大家为他鼓掌，当然，非常感谢大家。现在，我非常荣幸地邀请到今天的主持人，一位富有远见的领导者，他对可持续发展和教育的承诺得到了全球的认可。他是苏努大学的创始人兼校长，也是萨尼集团的创始董事长。同时，我邀请杰弗里·谢博士致欢迎辞。掌声雷动。
各位阁下，尊敬的来宾，女士们，先生们，很抱歉我不得不使用这个房间，因为我知道杰弗里·萨克斯教授在这里会得到热烈的反响。很遗憾，我们的会议室已经被预订了，我们的会议厅也被其他人预订了。我无能为力，但我们必须在这里进行。所以，我想，请大家耐心等待。下午好，欢迎来到圣城科洛伦波。我很荣幸能够主持关于杰弗里·萨克斯教授的特别对话。与杰弗里·萨克斯教授一起探讨全球秩序变迁中的阿桑问题。萨克斯教授是双威大学杰弗里·萨克斯可持续发展中心主席，同时也是双威大学的杰弗里·谢荣誉教授。作为联合国可持续发展解决方案网络（UNSDSN）主席，他孜孜不倦地倡导可持续发展议程。他曾担任三任联合国秘书长的特别顾问，其中包括现任秘书长安东尼奥·古塔里斯。萨克斯教授将于下周来马来西亚参加亚洲峰会。我们很高兴有机会今天接待他，了解他对全球事件和问题的真知灼见。杰弗里，我很荣幸能够与他和他的家人成为多年的好友。索尼娅不是他的妻子。索尼娅这次不在我们身边，而是在他身边。
女儿丽莎教授。性在这里。丽莎在哪里？嗨，丽莎。丽莎·萨克斯教授是一位杰出的专家，目前是……的主任。哥伦比亚可持续投资中心，我的朋友杰弗里，欢迎回家，每次你回来，你都用你的伟大智慧、洞察力和视角丰富我们所有人，我们很感激你与我们分享，我还要欢迎我们尊敬的住房和地方政府部长年轻婆罗门参加这次对话，当然，我们今天也邀请了我们的年轻婆罗门，日本大使阁下、澳大利亚高级专员公署以及俄罗斯、巴西、阿塞拜疆、班加罗尔和尼日利亚大使馆的代表。许多极端的企业领导人和银行家也都在这里，欢迎我们。事实上，我们的反应非常热烈，我们无法容纳所有报名的人，就像我说的，我们不得不在隔壁开设几个卫星会议室来举办这次对话。我们无法在大宴会厅和会议中心举行这次活动，因为那里的座位已经被订满了。女士们，先生们，我们生活在一个动荡的时代，除了气候变化和欧洲和中东的战争之外，我们现在正处于一个地缘政治紧张局势可能达到自二战以来最高水平的时代。冷战的结束、联合国17个可持续发展目标以及《巴黎气候协定》本应
让我们重回正轨，但最近关于这两个方面的报告表明，我们现在已经偏离了正轨。换句话说，我们正在辜负我们的孩子和子孙后代。是的，情况非常严重，很多人都非常担忧。我们的一些教授告诉我，许多气候科学家正饱受绝望和抑郁的折磨。杰夫，你致力于推动可持续发展和世界和平，致力于正义和公平，致力于消除贫困和饥饿的诅咒。即使你无畏地继续追求这些崇高的事业，你也树了一些强大的敌人。我相信，
你正在采取一切预防措施，确保自己和家人的安全和福祉。
这种困境反映了我们所处的这个特殊时代，我们非常感谢你的工作，我们也关心你的安全。女士们先生们，马来西亚的阿山提交主席团将于下周开始，令人难过的是，我们的总理爸爸斯里·阿迈·易卜拉欣提出的议程是围绕一个愿景构建的。以包容性和可持续性为主题的共同进步，联合国可持续发展网络亚洲总部设在双威大学，是世界上仅有的三个此类中心之一，致力于在推进这一目标方面发挥自己的作用，当然，另外两个中心分别在纽约和巴黎，我们还将与S教授一起，于本周日，即东盟半决赛前夕，在双威大学召开关于东盟综合能源和数字未来的高级别战略会议，我们的联合国可持续发展网络亚洲团队制定了一个由东盟公共和私营部门高级官员组成的计划，以释放东盟电网和综合数字经济的巨大潜力，我邀请大家加入我们，女士们，先生们，我们对东盟更加包容、繁荣和可持续未来的共同愿望是动荡时期的希望和积极性的源泉，像今天在座的各位一样，我非常期待听到S教授的观点和见解萨克斯 (saxs) 为我们今天面临的挑战所提供的帮助，不用多说，杰夫，我把麦克风交给你，谢谢你，[掌声]如果可以的话，也许我会站在这里，下午好，坦雷，非常感谢，就像在家一样，呃，事实上，这里就是家，丽莎和我都很高兴来到这里，我很高兴我在舞台上，丽莎在观众席中，因为通常当我现在去某个地方时，他们会说“哦，你是丽莎萨克斯的父亲。”所以这次她必须看着我，而不是我看着她。她是哥伦比亚大学的教授，教授气候金融，这与我们接下来的讨论以及接下来几天非常重要的东盟-中国-海湾合作委员会峰会的挑战息息相关。峰会本身就是一个时代的标志，它将广阔的亚洲、中国、东盟和西亚聚集在一起，构成了当今世界经济的活力边缘。因此，即将举行的峰会是一个非常有希望的机会，也是对马来西亚的巨大敬意。作为东盟-中国-海湾合作委员会主席国，我相信下周的峰会将取得巨大成功，马来西亚担任东盟主席国也将取得巨大成功。有很多事情要做，我相信东盟会做到的。
我的主要观点是，尽管存在所有这些动荡和毫无疑问的严重风险，但
我们确实有理由保持乐观，不仅是口头上的，而是真正的理由。
世界正在被打乱，正在快速变化，而且变化的方式令人恐惧。
表面上是这样，但我想说的是，在表面之下，更深层次的
趋势是积极的，不仅是积极的，而且是强大的，所以双威大学倡导的可持续发展理念，正如你从随处可见的可持续发展目标的标志中看到的，这是正确的方向，尽管还有很多工作要做，但我相信这是世界最终能够实现的目标。它需要实现它，也能够实现它。在我看来，这种需求和能力的结合表明，我们将会找到前进的道路。今天的主题是全球秩序的颠覆性转变。当然，我们每天都能感受到时代变化的速度，因此每天都会发生难以预测的事件。这种剧烈变化的根本原因在于这种巨大的不确定性。当然，世界经济正在发生巨大的变化。我不会说我们每天都能看到它，但年复一年、十年复十年，深刻的变革正在发生，其核心是相当重要的事情，那就是亚洲结束了欧洲和美国长期主宰世界经济的时期，亚洲已经恢复了其作为世界经济重心的地位，而亚洲在过去的大部分时间里都占据着这一位置。过去2000年，实际上，工业革命时期中断了。工业革命首先在欧洲兴起，如果我可以这样说的话，它是欧洲帝国主义和大约250年欧洲主导地位的引擎，而那个时期即将结束。事实上，正是亚洲的快速追赶以及由此引发的地缘政治变化，让我们感受到我们时代的深刻混乱和不确定性。但这种变化的根本原因是东北亚、东南亚、西亚等地区的快速发展，我们将在下周与这些国家会面。尽管这种变化非常具有颠覆性，但它并非恐慌的原因，反而是，退一步来看，它反而是一个乐观的理由。因为发生的事情是，一个曾经被权力和技术严重分裂的世界，现在真正变成了一个多极世界，其中，美国和欧洲无疑仍然非常成熟，非常强大，但不再是世界主导者。我们已经进入了真正的多极时代，这是一个巨大的挑战，但也是……一个美好的事实，一个绝佳的机会。20世纪下半叶，一个由欧洲主导，继欧洲之后又由美国主导的世界，并非我们想要的世界。我们想要的是一个一小部分国家在技术、军事力量、财富和金融方面都领先于世界其他地区。我们想要的是一个技术成果被广泛分享的世界，而现在我们做到了。所以，我要强调的第一点，我们这个时代的基本经济事实，就是经济学家所说的“条件趋同”，即无论出于何种历史原因，在技术和经济上落后于其他国家的国家，无论是在收入方面，还是在基础设施和技术的推广方面，都有机会赶上或超越那些领先的国家，因为当他们建设新的基础设施时，相信我，这就是跨越式发展。如果你想回想一下这一点，你可以飞往美国机场，你会记得，这个世界的这个地区正在真正地跨越式发展，并且正在建设更现代化的基础设施。 21世纪，你会发现，世界上一些所谓的发达经济体的情况比现在更糟糕。这种经济变革无疑正在造成地缘政治紧张局势，这在短期内非常危险，我稍后会再谈这个问题。但我想说，除了经济趋同之外，我们还有其他根本性变革的驱动力。我应该提到，我使用了“条件趋同”这个词，这意味着追赶或跨越式发展并非自动发生，而是一个经济体或一个地区的一种潜力。如果治理不善，如果经济战略不力，这个世界就有可能陷入困境。如果公共部门的表现不如私营部门，那么这种潜力就无法实现。但更快增长的机会，快速增长的能力，是我们这个时代的现实。我们这个时代的现实是，几乎所有亚洲国家都在利用这一点。近几十年来，中华人民共和国经历了40年的显著增长。东盟大部分地区（尽管不是全部）也都实现了快速增长。我们现在拥有印度每年以6%到7%的速度增长，实际上是世界上主要经济体中最快的增长速度，这也是一个重大的变化，我们也看到亚洲其他地区也出现了这种快速的经济发展。我几分钟后会指出，我认为非洲也会发生同样的情况。由于历史和地理等诸多原因，非洲是迄今为止世界经济最落后的地区，但这将是未来40年的一个时代。非洲的经济发展也同样迅速。除了经济变革和地缘政治变革之外，还有三大颠覆性力量相互关联。但当今经济变革的驱动力和颠覆性发展的最大推动力，都是技术变革的惊人速度。这并非必然，但它就是发生了。数字革命的革命性和生产力远超人们普遍预期，这一点并非必然。即使在10年或20年前，我们也都知道这一点，并且每时每刻都能感受到它。
人工智能推动了大型语言模型的发展，这些似乎
只是在过去几年里突然出现在我们面前，对我们大多数人来说，这都是事实。
当然，科学家、计算机科学家、数学家、电气工程师以及其他相关领域的人士，至少在过去75年里一直在研究这场革命的潜在现实。数字革命的起源可以追溯到1936年艾伦·图灵的设想，以及约翰·冯· 20世纪40年代初，人类的智慧和创造力得到了极大的发展，但这需要一系列技术的进步，包括晶体管、集成电路、半导体和微处理器，以及万维网的发明、人工智能和神经网络的出现。这些技术最初诞生于20世纪50年代，但在1970年左右就走向了衰落。而我们这个时代的奇迹，在过去的90年里发生了太多事情，让我们以前所未有的速度发展。这场数字革命的魅力在于，它正在彻底改变每一个科学领域，这不仅影响着计算和人工智能，也影响着生物科学、材料科学以及科学技术的所有其他领域。这些技术深刻地影响着科学和技术的各个方面。这场革命之所以如此具有颠覆性，当然是因为任何深刻的技术变革都会改变我们的工作方式、生活方式、城市布局、城市化路径以及我们生活的时间分配。我们大部分时间都在盯着屏幕，无论是在工作还是在通勤。这一切都随着科技进步的浪潮而改变，而且在未来25年里，这些改变可能会比以往任何时候都更加彻底，而这些改变的方式在很大程度上仍是未知的，甚至在现阶段是无法预知的。此外，经济、地缘政治和技术变革当然也带来了生态灾难，它正在同时出现。这并非偶然，也不是偶然的，但经济的成功也带来了副作用，其中最主要、最显著、最不利的副作用当然是生态副作用。现代世界经济依靠化石燃料发展起来，化石燃料的出现完全是偶然的，不是因为它们本身就是化石燃料，而是因为它们燃烧时会改变气候。这完全是偶然的。这并不意味着化石燃料不道德或存在问题，而是指二氧化碳的量子力学特性，也就是它恰好吸收红外辐射，以及二氧化碳在大气中存在的原因。二氧化碳的三个原子以这种方式排列，意味着二氧化碳浓度的上升正在使地球变暖。这真是倒霉，呃，这倒霉的意思是，事情本不必如此。有很多化合物的量子力学性质不符合温室气体的标准，但二氧化碳恰好是其中之一。女士们先生们，129年前，这一点就被明确地认识到了，所以这并非什么新鲜事。1896年，诺贝尔奖获得者、瑞典化学家斯凡特·伊拉尼乌斯用铅笔和纸，当然没有计算机模型，因为当时没有计算机，也没有气候模型，因为当时没有气候模型。但他凭借对二氧化碳吸收光谱含义的深刻理解，以及在19世纪80年代和90年代在实验室中证实的二氧化碳吸收光谱，认识到更多的二氧化碳将使地球变暖。他用纸和铅笔，在18个月的时间里，得出结论：如果二氧化碳翻倍。大气中的二氧化碳浓度将导致约5摄氏度的升温，而所谓的气候敏感性在129年后被证明是完全正确的，呃，实际上，呃，以一种绝对令人担忧的方式完全正确，因为直到几年前，人们还说伊朗高估了气候敏感性，这是错误的，因为各种反馈意见和IPCC（政府间小组，为我们提供了科学共识）的说法是，二氧化碳浓度翻倍，气候敏感性仅为3摄氏度。
我在哥伦比亚大学有一位非常烦人的同事，呃，他
碰巧是个天才，呃，也是一个非常勇敢的人，也是美国顶尖的气候学家，名叫詹姆斯·汉斯。我每次在这里发言都会提到他，因为他总是给我带来坏消息，所以我喜欢分享坏消息，只是为了让我摆脱烦恼。但他今年早些时候写了一篇论文，说“现在所有关于地球能量不平衡的观测证据（现在可以通过卫星直接测量）以及古代气候温度变化的古气候记录表明，二氧化碳翻倍的敏感度是4.8°C（8°C）。顺便说一句，汉森非常烦人，因为40年来，他几乎在所有事情上都是正确的。作为我安静的同事，他把我吓得魂飞魄散了25年，因为他会走到我面前说：‘杰夫，情况比我们想象的要糟糕得多。’嗯，实际上，你们都知道，我们的研究结果已经突破了1.5°C的海平面上升，这是我们10年前在巴黎气候大会上说过的，我们不会允许这种情况发生，而仅仅10年后，我们就远远提前实现了预期目标。”与工业化前相比，全球气温上升了1.5摄氏度，而工业化前通常被认为是1850年至1900年或1880年至1920年的平均气温。
以三年前的平均气温为基准，我们现在的气温比那时高了1.5摄氏度。
有人说，这只是暂时的，是厄尔尼诺现象造成的。但现在，我们
经历了厄尔尼诺、列宁格勒、中性气候，气温
徘徊在1.5摄氏度。汉森和许多其他气候科学家认为，这是因为潜在的敏感度比我们想象的要高，而且由于远洋运输造成的污染，特别是硫酸盐气溶胶遮蔽了阳光，一些变暖现象被掩盖了。但随着远洋运输的清洁，潜在的更快的变暖速度暴露出来。女士们，先生们，我可以说，这种气候变化是正在发生的更普遍的生态灾难的一部分。
我们仍然没有认真对待，因为它不是……不仅仅是气候变化以及气候变化带来的所有影响，还有对生态系统的巨大破坏。想想马来西亚、整个东南亚的森林砍伐，还有刚果盆地和亚马逊地区的森林砍伐。许多雨林地区正在达到临界点，因为雨林通过其引发的水文循环，将降雨输送到雨林边缘，从而提供自身的降雨。如果砍伐了足够多的雨林，雨林就会变成旱地，这种情况就有可能发生在亚马逊南部，目前已经接近临界点。不仅雨林构成威胁，我们的湿地、高山地区、世界上的北方地区、世界上的渔业资源以及世界上的沿海地区都面临着威胁。因此，物种正在大量减少，越来越多的物种面临灭绝的危险，越来越多的生态系统面临着灭绝的危险。临界点会引发某种生态崩溃，然后是生态灾难的第三个维度，那就是现在无处不在的化学污染物，我们体内的
微塑料，我们大脑中的
我们生活在化学污染物的海洋中。
因为我们拥有现代化的化学工业，它不仅制造了塑料和其他我们使用的东西，还造成了空气、淡水、土壤和海洋的普遍污染。现在，我听起来并不乐观，
但请允许我快速补充一下，这些挑战是有解决方案的，我们现在知道，科学家和技术人员已经发明了一些方法，可以为我们找到出路。问题在于以更快的速度、更广的范围和更大的规模应用这些方法，才能真正解决这些问题。因此，根本问题是政治问题，而不是技术问题。因为存在解决这些问题的方案，
但我们并没有大规模地解决它们。我想提到的最后一个干扰因素是人口结构变化，因为我们正处于人口结构快速变化的时期，它以多种形式出现，取决于在亚洲部分地区，人口结构的快速变化意味着人口增长的结束和人口的快速老龄化，实际上，中国不仅达到了人口峰值，而且还进入了人口快速下降的时期。中国已经达到了人口峰值。如果对中国的人口统计数据进行合理的推断，到本世纪末，中国人口将下降到
10亿以下，但很有可能
低于8亿。因此，由于生育率如此之低，人口将急剧下降。与此同时，人口老龄化将非常严重，平均年龄接近60岁。这是一个巨大的社会变革。世界其他地区仍处于人口快速增长阶段，非洲是生育率仍然很高的大陆，因此人口数量将不断扩大。到本世纪中叶，非洲人口将从目前的14亿增至25亿，占世界人口的比例将从18%增至25%以上。如果你进行一些推断，虽然有些机械，但进行过多的推断是有风险的。到2100年，非洲人口将达到近40亿，而世界人口总数约为100亿。因此，非洲人口将占世界人口的近40%。从20世纪中期（1950年到2100年）非洲人口占世界人口的比例约为10%。因此，人口结构也发生了巨大的变化，这意味着移民的大规模迁移，也意味着经济活动地点的大规模变化等等。综合起来，我们显然正处于一个极具颠覆性的变革时期，我们感受到地球的震动，我们感到没有人能够完全掌控局面。但我认为还有一个因素也很重要，也值得注意。我不知道该如何委婉地表达，但呃，美国正在精神崩溃。嗯，这是正在发生的事情的另一个因素。几十年来，美国一直是世界上最强大的国家，占据主导地位的经济体和技术领导者。两次世界大战以惊人的速度结束了欧洲的统治地位。因为这些战争本质上是欧洲内战，在那个地区，其破坏力达到了工业规模，呃，残酷程度之高令人难以想象。这种情况在1914年至1945年间发生了两次。
所以到那个时期结束时，欧洲在物质上遭到摧毁，欧洲在道德上
也陷入了困境，欧洲在经济上也破产了。这也是
该地区帝国时代的终结。因为欧洲已经精疲力竭，一些国家试图与之抗争一段时间，但现实摆在了所有人的面前。除了几个岛屿之外，欧洲帝国主义也沦为帝国主义的傀儡。昨天，英国又占领了一个岛屿。嗯，基本上，欧洲的统治时期结束了，美国成为了唯一的主要强国。因为美国在两次世界大战中，只有一天时间是在美洲大陆上进行的。土壤，那当然是1941年12月7日，日本袭击了珍珠港海军基地。除此之外，美国不仅建立了自己的工业，发展了自己的技术，推进了技术发展。第二次世界大战是一段令人震惊的技术进步时期，这与战争的努力息息相关。雷达、半导体、各种航空电子和航天技术的发明、火箭技术、控制论和计算机技术等等，以及二战带来的许多其他进步。希特勒的疯狂驱使整整一代世界顶尖科学家来到美国海岸，那些幸存下来的科学家。因此，美国不仅拥有独特的物理基础设施和独特的工业规模，而且还拥有世界科学领导地位，除了苏联的一些伟大科学家之外，但除了那一个例外，美国一直占据主导地位，美国认为这意味着统治地位基本上是永远的，因为当一个国家以这种方式掌权时，他们相信自己的美德，他们阅读自己的头条新闻，阅读他们的美国的新闻稿和新闻稿是
美国世纪，嗯，这是亨利·洛斯在1941年提出的，我们还没
够
维持一个世纪，但他们也没能维持一百年，但美国认为它会无限期地成为世界霸主，几十年来，美国确实在技术上领先，但聪明的人、创意、教育、科学技术传播开来，世界其他地区也为这些进步发展了自己的地盘。我不想赘述这个故事，只想说，首先是日本从二战的废墟中崛起，然后是所谓的亚洲四小龙，嗯，台湾、香港、嗯，新加坡，嗯，抱歉，我漏掉了一个，还有韩国，不好意思，韩国，大韩民国，这四个国家都效仿日本模式，嗯，顺便说一下，在很多方面，在某些情况下，几乎在制度上都是如此。实现了快速增长，然后中国在文化大革命结束时终于意识到自己也能做到同样的事情。到了今天，不得不说，东亚在技术领先地位方面绝对可以与美国匹敌。尤其是在中国，它在很多技术领域都与美国不相上下，甚至领先于美国。在生产方面，不仅是设计和概念方面，毫无疑问，亚洲在21世纪先进技术的实际生产方面远远领先于美国。所以美国当时并没有指望这一点。但更有趣的是，我认为从地缘政治角度来看，美国的发展非常顺利，在整个冷战时期，它在财政、经济和技术上都占据主导地位，而苏联在军事领域和太空技术领域至少在军事上是真正的竞争对手。简单来说，1991年底苏联解体，变成15个加盟共和国，这在美国人的心目中证实了，这不仅仅是美国世纪，也许是美国千年。当时的想法是，未来几十年内，任何地方都不会有竞争对手。现在，美国完全掌控了局面，谁能与美国抗衡？苏联解体后，美国考虑到世界上大多数其他地区都拥有美国政治和美国软帝国的全资子公司。
如果我可以这么说的话，华盛顿的经济学家不太好。
我不得不说，他们不懂如何展望未来，不了解更深层次的趋势。他们从未了解中国，而且从那时到今天，他们仍然不了解中国。他们没有前瞻性的认知。中国是一个对抗苏联的有用的稻米种植盟友，这就是美国人想象中的中国，或者是一个为美国儿童生产玩具的好地方，正如唐纳德·特朗普几天前所说。战争意味着美国孩子会比平时拥有的娃娃多一些，少一些，呃 ...嗯，所以我认为亚洲开发银行认为这是他们出版过的最糟糕的东西，我不这么认为，所有副本可能都被销毁了，嗯，但无论如何，当时的情绪是亚洲永远无法真正赶上，这是一个泡沫。嗯，嗯，有点夸张等等，但那本书非常准确地指出，要看长期的深层趋势，而不是短期的周期性现象，而且它没有考虑或研究短期商业周期，而是着眼于25年的周期。它的观点是正确的，那就是亚洲将继续保持快速增长，我想说，亚洲的增长速度超过了我在1997年的预测。虽然这是一个非常乐观和准确的评估，但亚洲，尤其是中国，所做的是缩小创新差距和技术差距。所以这可能是最引人注目的事实，那就是，不仅东亚正在生产尖端技术，而且现在的创新东亚也在崛起，但我想表达的观点其实是心理层面，而非技术或经济层面。美国对这一切深感困惑，美国世纪在哪里？它应该至少持续到2041年，如果不是的话。2141年，突然间它消失了，所以我们处于高度神经质的状态。现在我们非常焦虑，很难找到一个人，能坐下来跟我们说：“冷静下来，没关系，没有人夺走你的美好生活，中国没有入侵你，中国不是威胁。呃，它非常成功，但你应该享受这种成功。”呃，呃，不，不，不，不，不，不，不，我们现在面临的另一个因素是对美国失去领导力的强烈反应，这是一种非常深刻且令人不安的反应。
我不得不说，我们现在经历的大多数冲突，
无论是在中东，还是在乌克兰，还是在东亚的紧张局势，
美国始终是这些冲突的起因之一。
但实际上，大多数冲突的根源在于美国夸大了其对世界其他国家发号施令的能力。
而这正是美国不明白的，它不能简单地告诉俄罗斯，我们可以在乌克兰或其他邻国为所欲为，因为俄罗斯不希望在其边境建立美国军事基地，就像美国不希望在西半球建立俄罗斯军事基地一样。但美国无法理解其中的互惠性，也无法理解“己所不欲，勿施于人”的黄金法则。所以我们当时没有意识到这一点，而许多其他危机也都有这种特点。
戏剧性的是，不幸的是，美国
现在应对这一问题是多么的无效，这就是为什么我们才会出现这次关税爆发，
这完全是一场闹剧，而不是真正的事件。它之所以是一场闹剧，是因为
提高关税与美国的需求无关，它不是解决任何问题的方案，
这就是为什么关税持续了两天，股市
就崩盘了。债券市场崩溃了，有人出来
向总统解释，你最好停止这种做法，这种情况持续了大约8周，因为中国表示，我们会??采取与你相同的措施，然后美国
也放弃了，这就是我所说的对现实的
完全失常的反应，即美国无法主导事态发展。唐纳德·特朗普认为美国市场如此重要，如此占据主导地位，以至于任何国家都只能屈服于美国，呃呃，屈服于美国的意志。这根本不正确，这不是正确的理解。美国进口市场
现在只占全球进口的13%左右，所以你可以完全关闭美国市场，
世界其他国家也会找到相处得很好的方法。
确实，这几乎要经受考验了，但美国很快做出了让步，
我认为它不会再卷土重来。总而言之，让我总结一下，有些反应要糟糕得多。呃，我们正处于我所说的美国文化大革命之中，这不是一件好事。呃，文化大革命进展不顺利。呃，它们实际上使中国倒退了20年。昨天，美国驱逐了哈佛大学的外国学生。这不是玩笑，这是疯了。这是一种自我毁灭，其速度之快，除了从心理学角度来看，是绝对无法理解的。这是一种反弹、怨恨、侵略和傲慢，旨在摧毁你们繁荣的核心。所以，我知道双威大学欢迎外国学生，[掌声]而且这将带来巨大的回报。所以，让我以以下观察作为结束。无论从哪个角度来看生态危机，或者世界上仍然贫困的人们，你都应该像工程师一样系统地提出问题。我知道这个房间里坐满了顶尖的工程师，我遇到了几位来自Seammens的工程师，呃，易冲是我们这个时代最伟大的工程师之一。呃，如果你从工程的角度来看待这个问题我喜欢工程师的一点是，他们会说：“你告诉我你想要的规格，我就能告诉你怎么建造。”针对我们面临的问题，我们可以将能源系统重塑为一个零碳能源系统，使其高效运转，适应快速经济发展，净化空气，并带来其他一些协同效益，这与我们正在积极参与的先进数字经济完全一致，我希望东盟在今年的系列峰会上能够将其作为目标，因为东盟应该拥有一个面向未来的最先进的21世纪绿色清洁能源系统。如果你看看其他任何可持续发展目标，并以非常实用的工程方式提出这个问题，就能做到这一点。所有孩子都能上学吗？当然可以。令人难以置信的是，实际上有数亿孩子没有上学。这是缺乏组织和融资策略的问题，而融资策略并非技术层面的决定性因素。无论如何，每个人都能获得医疗保健吗？随着人工智能的进步，医疗保健服务能够……在过去的两三年里，任何地方的医疗质量都大幅提升。
这不仅仅是一个愿望，而是在很多地方正在发生。因为现在大多数事情都不需要医生在附近，你可以进行远程成像、远程诊断，还可以做很多事情，这些事情不需要在偏远地区建设基础设施，而这些在两年五年前甚至十年前都是不可能的。所以我们并不缺乏
实际的解决方案，我们缺乏的是组织能力，以及将我们大学、研究实验室、智库和政府的专业知识整合起来，以便有效地完成这项工作。顺便说一句，我认为中国是世界上最成功地将高水平的分析和长期的政府规划结合起来的国家。这就是为什么中国刚刚建成了第5万公里的高铁。他们以世界其他任何地方都没有的方式建设了基础设施，这就是为什么他们要新建300公里的高铁。目前，每年新增太阳能发电量达 1000 吉瓦，未来一两年内可能达到 500 吉瓦。大规模转型的能力已近在眼前，我们需要组织、规划和专业知识，最终实现这一目标的需要是强有力的区域一体化。
问题无法在任何地方的国家层面解决，甚至更是如此。
对于印度等大国来说，他们需要来自喜马拉雅山的水电。
来自尼泊尔和不丹的水电。中国需要将其电网与
隔壁的蒙古以及东南亚，实际上，美国，互联互通。
为了实现能源系统的脱碳，我们绝对需要加拿大的水电和墨西哥的太阳能。当然是东盟十国。
没有哪个国家能够独自实现这种转变。
所以，东盟峰会如此重要，马来西亚担任主席国也如此重要。
因为区域集团不再是令人愉快的事情。
与邻国举行会议，这对我们取得成功至关重要。
我们需要区域层面的治理，当然，我们在东亚需要的规模。
至少要达到区域全面经济伙伴关系（ARP）的经济水平。
ARP是区域全面经济伙伴关系，它将中国、日本、韩国、东盟、澳大利亚和新西兰聚集在一起。我设想所有15个国家都将纳入一个综合能源系统。
甚至通过海底电缆将澳大利亚与印度尼西亚连接起来。
然后连接到东盟其他国家。
顺便说一下，在座的Zammons先生提出了一个想法。
对于欧洲来说，他以前被称为“沙漠技术”（Desertech），即将整个欧洲电网与北非、
以及中东连接起来。
欧洲失去了。西曼斯先生指明了方向，但政客们却没有遵循，嗯，但这正是我们寻求区域解决方案所需要的逻辑。中国将在该地区发挥巨大而积极的作用，顺便说一句，美国并没有永远消失，嗯，我们只需要度过我们的文化革命，非常感谢。
非常精彩。
非常感谢萨克斯教授，嗯，你知道，那场演讲的毅力和热情，我想，
每个人都能清楚地感受到。接下来，我相信大家都非常渴望问答环节，因此，由我来主持我们的主持人对话。
观众问答环节，我想邀请查桑威大学的副校长达特里博士伊德里斯·贾拉，
以及一位受人尊敬的国家转型政策和战略领袖，最近很受欢迎的播客。
斯里博士，请您发言，谢谢。
非常感谢，嗯，很高兴能坐在两位杰弗里斯旁边。嗯，我有很多问题。已经发布，呃，也许我已经发布了。如果您觉得我有机会提问，我很乐意邀请??您参与坦特里活动。
一个问题，好吗？
杰夫，和您以及我们这些关心人类命运的人一样，我深感担忧。我投入了如此多的时间、精力和资源来建立像杰弗里·萨克斯中心这样的机构，
以及在萨姆大学设立联合国科学、技术和战略网络亚洲总部。
看起来，只需要白宫就能扭转一切，颠覆世界。
你认为我们如何才能克服这一真正的挑战，推进可持续发展议程，并实现为我们的子孙后代创造更美好未来的希望。
杰夫，非常感谢。
我认为，首先，呃，我再说一些关于美国的负面评价，然后再说一些正面评价。
但首先，美国占世界??人口的4.1%，
正如我所说，它大约占世界的14%。
GDP大约占世界GDP的14%。占全球二氧化碳排放量的14%，这很重要，但如果你用所谓的国际价格或购买力价格来衡量GDP，它就不是决定性的。中国比美国大约大30%。正如我刚才所说，美国有一个相当于世界86%的国家。美国不仅在相对规模和重要性上正在下降，而且目前它正在放弃国际责任。美国已经宣布退出气候协定，也就是《巴黎协定》。美国基本上正在退出许多多边活动，包括世界卫生组织和其他组织。因为对失去地位的反应是，如果我不是第一，我就不想和你玩。我会以其他方式成为第一。所以美国处于一种心理恐慌之中，正如我所解释的那样，它不想遵守规则。它不想玩。根据贸易规则，它不想停止排放，也不想资助联合国，等等等等，但世界其他国家并没有因此改变方向。你没有看到世界其他国家站出来，最终站出来谈论唐纳德·特朗普，说这就是我们想要的领导力，但这并没有发生。现在的情况是，每个人都在忙着……我们该怎么办……我们应该怎么做等等。但不是我们如何跟随美国放弃所有这些……多边目标还没有实现。联合国层面正在发生的事情……是一种不同的理解，那就是我们目前在全球议程上不会达成一致，但他们使用了一个短语……实质性共识，这意味着世界上大多数……实际上，世界上绝大多数国家仍然签署了议程，而一个或几个国家却没有……我认为这就是我们现在的现实，首先全球议程
现在还没有被颠覆，尽管如此，它也还没有实现
而且没有实现，因为我们现在大部分时间都浪费在了冲突和分裂上，领导人甚至没有团结美国
没有聚在一起讨论气候问题，他们每天都在谈论
战争
几乎每天都在谈论
英国首相、法国总统
德国总理和波兰总理会见了扎林斯基先生
目的是什么，我不知道，但他们现在都没有日常工作了
他们每天都想说我们支持乌克兰，好吧，这是
一种不同的妄想，那就是我们不必谈论和平
我们应该只谈论战争
所以，当美国缺席的时候
欧洲陷入了一种不同的疯狂，因为它失去了它最大的保护者
事实上，美国未来不会保卫欧洲，但
事实是俄罗斯不会入侵欧洲
所以，有一种不同的
幻想正在酝酿，那就是俄罗斯即将出现在欧洲的家门口呃，巴黎，呃，就好像我们
在1815年，呃，而不是呃在
2025年，所以这对我们来说也是浪费时间，有很多时间被浪费了。
乌克兰战争是一场极其浪费时间的战争，除了
美国想要扩大北约，而当俄罗斯说不的时候，美国
说我们不在乎你们说什么，最终爆发了战争，这就是
这场战争的本质，也是中东战争的本质
也非常明确，以色列说我们想要
世界其他国家说的一切，你们得一半，以色列说我们想要
美国说的一切，我们都会按照以色列说的做，185个国家说的划分
财产，实际上它不是一半，如果你看看当时巴勒斯坦的情况，
英国在1921年占领了它，以色列在其1967年边界下的份额已经是
78%，但这还不够好以色列的激进分子想要
100% 的选票，而巴勒斯坦连22%都拿不到，所以我们在
一些显而易见的事情上浪费时间。185个国家说要成立两个国家，而
美国和以色列都说不，以色列占据主导地位，在这个问题得到解决之前，
战争将继续下去，这场悲剧，只需要一次投票变化，而不是
以色列，因为以色列没有否决权，而美国只要放弃否决权，
巴勒斯坦建国，中东就能真正实现和平，这真是太神奇了。呃，这些问题
浪费时间，可能会持续数十年，当然，它们是悲剧，是灾难，但它们的核心并不复杂，唯一让它们看起来复杂的是围绕着它们的所有宣传，但如果你退一步思考，
了解基本情况，它们甚至并不复杂，所以关键在于
议程并没有消失。而且
我们实际执行可持续发展目标、《巴黎气候协定》或《生物多样性公约》的能力
比5年前强得多，比20年前更是强得多。
但感觉并非如此，因为现在没人谈论它。
讨论的都是乌克兰战争、唐纳德·特朗普的关税，呃，或者禁止外国学生
进入哈佛大学，或者其他一些与我们的世界完全无关的事情，我们都在浪费时间。
我的观点是，虽然世界上大多数国家并不参与其中，但这就是新闻周期的主导，
但这不是大多数国家想要的，也不是
大多数国家实际上在做的事情。我再次提到中国。中国是一个非常
严肃的政府，它有计划，有目标，有10年和20年的愿景，并且正在构建这些愿景，它不会像
这些日常新闻周期那样受到影响。
我认为东盟的情况可以相同，也应该相同，我
相信世界上大多数地区都是如此，所以我对此并不悲观。
我感到沮丧，我对自己的国家感到有点震惊，
但实际上我已经密切关注了它50年。
海明威小说《太阳照常升起》中有一个著名的人物被问到，你是如何
破产的，答案是先慢慢地，然后很快，呃，呃，人们也可以说
美国的政治危机也是如此，长期以来缓慢地，现在非常
迅速，但它占据了新闻周期，却没有真正吸引全世界的注意力，不应该被允许。我们最大的危险是
这些冲突失控了，在这里，让我为特朗普先生说几句话，他其实不喜欢战争，这是最好的新闻。
可以想象，他喜欢钱吗？他喜欢大飞机，他喜欢各种各样的东西，就像我们讨论的那样，他喜欢高尔夫，但是，他不喜欢战争，他不是战争贩子，他正在与普京总统和解，虽然他在美国因此受到攻击，但他做的，绝对是正确的，他正在与伊朗和解，只是美国每个人都在对他大喊大叫，不要这样做，但他的直觉是，是的，达成协议，可能会有一些钱，这实际上是件好事，所以即使这样，也不全是坏事，这位总统不喜欢战争，乔·拜登要么喜欢战争，要么只是当时不在场。有人喜欢战争，但我们经历了四年的战争，而
特朗普实际上正在努力让战争逐渐平息，所以这一切其实是想说，我知道你
问我这个问题，呃，你知道我们是不是正在失去整个议程吗？
答案是否定的，我们没有失去议程，气候灾难无论如何都会把议程放在首位，但我们
现在分心太多了，我们国家的政治太奇怪了，
过去很重要，世界需要做的是学会不要只关注那一点点，呃，而是要把注意力放在正确的事情上，
从长远来看，这非常有趣。
谢谢杰夫，杰夫的主题是关于全球秩序的转变，我只是想
提出这一点，三周前我在哈佛，我每年在那里讲课两次，
参加哈佛部长级领导力项目，呃，一个九月，
四月，我在那里待了一个星期，他们唯一谈论的就是
唐纳德特朗普说得对，你提到了我们正在经历的文化大革命。如果你回顾历史，就会想起二战期间英国的情况。丘吉尔当时否认这一点，他不相信大英帝国正在衰落，他仍然希望英国再次伟大。这个想法很相似，但我认为战争真正让他们认清了现实。当时，战争结束了。我听到你在播客里说过，2700万俄罗斯人为这场战争牺牲，而人们已经忘记了。是的，他们不会承认这一点。人们已经忘记了2700万俄罗斯人为这场战争牺牲的事实。这场战争是为了我们世界其他国家，当然，美国也参与其中，在盟军的胜利中发挥了非常重要的作用。我们现在谈论的转变，你谈到的是从单极世界到多极世界的转变，而美国不会失去任何重要性。它会
发挥非常重要的作用，但不会像以前那样，完全不会。现在你的问题是，那个水晶保龄球，你认为美国需要多长时间才能醒悟过来，接受这个多极世界是
真实的，而且不可能像他们以前那样回到超级世界。二战后的主导地位，因为你说文化大革命
很糟糕，如果它拖延很长时间，甚至会伤害到美国。是的，中国的文化大革命持续了15年，从
1964年基本上到1979年，呃，也许到
1978年，我不认为美国会在
呃，不到10年的时间里摆脱这种局面，因为美国正在发生的事情
唐纳德·特朗普，他是正在发生的事情的症状，他不是正在发生的事情的起因，
他之所以在那里，部分原因是美国政治的运作方式，也许
值得一提的是，我给你一个3分钟的美国政治理论。
嗯，美国在1787年制定了一部非常好的宪法。嗯，这在当时绝对是独创的，是一些才华横溢的人做的。
这有点不合时宜，现在你不会这样做了，但这是第一部成文宪法。
嗯，他们因此获得了许多赞誉。然而，这个体系
却很容易受到
几种严重滥用的影响。一个问题从一开始就困扰着美国，那就是种族问题。所以美国一开始是一个
极端种族主义的社会，一个可以想象到的最种族主义的社会之一，拥有大量的奴隶。
嗯，美国是世界上唯一一个需要战争来结束奴隶制的国家。
嗯，内战。其他国家以和平的方式结束了奴隶制，但美国没有。
嗯，美国需要一场残酷的战争来结束奴隶制。在这方面，它是独一无二的。
所以美国仍然是一个非常带有非常明显的种族主义色彩，唐纳德·特朗普的很多政策都是种族主义政策。
实际上，这就是昨天问题的一部分。当时他迎接南非总统时，说了很多废话，他实际上展示了一些与南非无关的照片，这些照片来自刚果。
这很有趣，但我只是想让我们思考一下，
这意味着白宫内部的氛围如此根深蒂固的种族主义，以至于白宫内部讨论的内容
简直是粗俗的，而这，
才是总统展示照片的唯一原因。他肯定把这些照片给很多人看过了，他们肯定
看了很开心，但种族主义如此强烈，以至于没有人真正
看到照片下面的印刷品，然后说：“总统先生，这不是南非。”呃，这就是刚果东部的战争。呃，这是一个深层次的问题，是
反移民、反阿拉伯、反穆斯林等等。呃，这是反华。呃，美国
从19世纪80年代起就存在反华种族主义，黄祸论，这在美国文明中可以追溯到很久以前，所以这是一个相当深层次的问题。
美国经历过一些波澜，有时克服了它，但有时因为恐惧，
神经质危机又会再次陷入其中。所以，呃，这是
呃，从……开始的因素之一。一开始是这样，但现在正处于一波糟糕的浪潮中，我们在
19 世纪 50 年代、19 世纪 80 年代和
20 世纪 20 年代都经历过这种情况，现在更是雪上加霜，美国正处于一个种族主义盛行的时期。
顺便说一下，为什么呢？因为人口结构的变化让
白人群体产生了更强的防御心态和恐慌情绪。
因为美国社会实际上比以往任何时候都更加多元化，而且在某种程度上，种族主义也比以往任何时候都少。
只是那部分人对此感到恐惧，他们对此产生了强烈反对。
这是正在发生的事情的一部分。
另一部分是，民主很容易被腐蚀。
你知道，我们知道金钱会腐蚀人心，而美国是一个
腐败的政治体系。上一个政治周期，2024 年，是一个 160 亿美元的周期。
对于一个 30 万亿美元的经济体来说，这并不多，我们的政府追求的是
便宜，但 160 亿美元也并非微不足道，你必须是亿万富翁。玩，所以这是亿万富翁收买政府的游戏，这就是发生的事情。
在美国，最高法院将这种行为合法化，并称这是言论自由。
马斯克说“我会给这个人一百万美元，我会挑战任何呃……反对特朗普的人，我会安排初选，他可以付钱，你知道，这是一个……
这是一个经济腐败，这是第二个因素。
我们的最高法院在将所有……合法化时没有正确理解这一点。
最高法院推翻了所有竞选资金的限制，理由是……
错误的观念认为这是言论自由，那不是言论自由，而是合法化的……
贿赂，这是一个大问题。美国的第三个问题是……
它是一个帝国，帝国当然依靠权力行事，但从1947年起，
它就将美国的关键外交政策流程……保密，所以一切都是机密，只是因为……我
亲眼目睹这一切已经40多年了，就像那句老话：你怎么知道一个政客在撒谎，就看他动动嘴巴？呃，还有，我怎么知道美国政府在外交政策上撒谎，就看它说了什么？
这都是没完没了的谎言，但这是秘密，不是真正的秘密。
每个人都知道他们在撒谎，但你无法完全证明，因为这是秘密。
这是可以否认的，所以美国在
2014年2月推翻乌克兰政府的过程中发挥了重要作用。我知道。我碰巧在那里。
几天后，其中一个扮演重要角色的人当着我的面吹嘘这件事，解释说：“我们
在迈丹给这个人，这个人，这个人捐了钱。”当我说我被攻击为
普京的辩护者时，他们站在迈丹当面告诉我。
但这是可以否认的，因为这是秘密。所以这是第三点
确实削弱了美国的政治结构，呃，所以这就是
为什么不仅仅是特朗普的问题，而是更深层次的问题。40多年来，我们都没能从根本上解决美国任何一个问题。
我们无法弥补预算赤字，无法就气候变化进行投票，无法
在美国实现全民医保。
十年来最大的创伤是奥巴马医改，你知道，当时有一场巨大的斗争。
但奥巴马医改只占GDP的1%的一半，它吞噬了整个国家10年。
不是整个国家，而是吞噬了政治阶层10年。我的观点是：
我们现在无法解决问题，所以请大家同情一下，
耐心点，但不要纠结于此，这就是我的观点。好的。好的，太棒了，不出所料，网上有很多问题，很多人都问了，我在这里也看到了。
如果你能把答案写得简短一点，那么我们可以报道这些，我想
我想问一下日本大使，呃，你好，shikata nori
是否想提问，好的，请用麦克风。
非常感谢萨克斯教授，作为哈佛肯尼迪学院的毕业生。
我太棒了，我有点不好意思，你知道，哈佛大学正在出台一项新的政策，
呃，我对你的演讲印象深刻，呃，一个问题，呃，一直萦绕在我脑海里，那就是，当我们审视全球政治格局时，有一种强烈的观点认为，
威权国家正在崛起，所以
全球的民主制度可能会受到削弱，你知道，
威权国家的崛起也可能阻碍社会保障体系（SGS）的推广。
所以我的理解是，可持续发展目标与民主或人权有着密切的关系，尽管可持续发展目标可能不会直接谈论言论自由，但美国宪法和美国体制允许政府进行民主变革，所以我想知道您是否也讨论了跨能源电网，当政府体制如此不同时，依赖例如从专制国家进口能源是否合理？然后我们可能会遭受能源禁运，这可能会增加……呃，你的
呃，脆弱性，所以我非常好奇，你知道你是如何将这些政治自由、民主、人权和
呃，可持续发展目标的推进联系起来的吗？这
在很大程度上关系到我们如何才能维护和促进基于伟大规则的
自由开放的国际秩序。非常感谢你，作为肯尼迪政府学院的教授，我为
拥有大使作为
作为肯尼迪学院的校友而感到自豪。顺便说一句，我今天查了一下
美国政府昨天宣布哈佛大学不招收外国学生
这是一个令人震惊的自我毁灭行为，当然不是哈佛大学的行为，而是
政府的行为。肯尼迪学院59%的学生是外国学生，而这
是伟大大学的一大骄傲，呃，呃，这是嗯嗯
这是一件可怕的事情，我希望法院能裁定其非法，这很有可能，嗯，而且这不会生效，但这还有待观察。我认为有很多问题，很遗憾，我无法在一分钟内回答。所以我会花几分钟时间，因为我认为很重要的一点是：
没有纯粹的政府类型，
也没有单一简单的理想政府类型。因此，认为
我们是好的，他们是坏的，是一个非常危险的出发点。我认为这是拜登政府最大的错误。他说：“世界正处于
一场民主与专制的斗争中。”首先，如果你一开始就认为
世界正处于战争之中，你就是在制造一个自我实现的预言，你分裂了世界。其次，如果你
这样做，你最终会忽略自己所有的失败，并且
纠结于对方的局限性。
在圣经里，我称之为我的建议，我说的是我的
建议是耶稣基督的外交政策，呃，呃，原因是，呃，福音书中有一个著名的场景，耶稣对对方说：
你自己眼中有梁木，为什么还要指责别人眼中有梁木？圣经里这段话的意思是，你为什么要
抱怨别人，改正自己的行为？所以我认为这实际上
真正地从行为、外交和尊重的角度来探讨我们应该如何在这个世界上行事。无论如何，我们应该承认我们有缺点，而通过这样说，
你帮助别人说，哦不，不，我们有缺点，而你减少威胁，就能增进相互理解。每个人都可以说：“我的天，我们一起失败了，我们都有自己的问题。” 但实际情况是，
“你们是邪恶的，我们是善良的。”这在政府的宣传和媒体中屡见不鲜，所以在美国媒体眼中，普京是彻头彻尾的恶魔。在美国媒体眼中，中国是彻头彻尾的恶魔。在我看来，与俄罗斯政府合作既危险又荒谬。与中国政府合作，这完全违背了现实。我说过，如果要我选择哪个政府在过去40年里最有效，我会说是中国。实际上，为什么？因为中国让一个国家摆脱了贫困，走向了繁荣。而且，人民的自由度也提高了，不是政治自由，而是自由度的提高。这是一个令人难以置信的成功故事，历史上最伟大的成功之一。顺便问一下，中国是怎么做到的？他们效仿了日本的模式。日本首先在明治维新时期就这么做了，然后在20世纪50年代，随着经济合作与发展组织（Eicada）的实施，中国的收入在十年内翻了一番。日本教会了东亚其他国家如何实现经济快速增长。所以，这并非如此。敌人，也并非什么陌生的东西。中国所取得的成就非常熟悉，看起来像韩国的成就，看起来像日本的成就，看起来像该地区许多其他国家的成就。中国只是做到了，规模如此之大，这更令人印象深刻。所以我会将中国描述为一个非常成功的政府治理结构，它正在以相当出色的方式满足其人民的需求。现在，中国政府将继续发展，毫无疑问，他们一直在使用“民主”这个词，顺便说一句，这不是宣传，而是他们对这个过程的理解。而且，一方面，中国不会发展太多，因为中国自公元前221年秦始皇统一秦国以来，已经是一个中央集权的行政国家，已有226年了。我知道这一点，因为丽莎在七年级的时候写过一篇关于这个的论文，那是我第一次了解这个，但是事实是，中国已经是一个中央集权的行政国家，已有2000多年的历史，所以习近平看起来像个皇帝，这并不奇怪，这就是文化传统，这就是文化，这是真实的。但它可能成功，也可能失败，可能残酷，也可能仁慈。西方历史上最有趣的政治著作之一，实际上是亚里士多德在2350年前写的第一本政治学著作。他把政治与政治联系起来，发明了政治学。实际上，他几乎发明了西方研究的所有领域，但他在这本书中发明了政治学。他说，政府形式多种多样，但每种形式都有好有坏。你可以是君主制，也可以是暴政，那是一人之政。你可以是贵族制或寡头制，那是少数人之政。你可以是共和制，也可以是暴民统治，那是多数人之政。所以你不能只看形式就说它是好是坏。中国的传统并非空洞的传统，而是……皇帝必须传达混乱的伦理来统治，以伦理来统治。领导方式多么有趣，多么美好的传统。西方思想中没有这种传统。西方思想中……有马哈维利，但在儒家思想中……皇帝以德治国。所以我不会用同样的方式对政府进行分类。我所相信的是，我们需要用……来相互对待。相互尊重和大量对话。我今天实际上是从Zoom会议开始的。今天我与日本国会议员和学术界人士进行了一次Zoom会议。我想那次会议是在国会大厦举行的，我不太确定，因为是用Zoom视频会议。但我当时说过，大使先生，我再说一遍，日本和中国
以及韩国应该加强外交，而不是被美国分裂。在这方面[掌声]。我指出，恕我直言，2000年来，中国从未
入侵过日本。除了1274年和1281年两次脚注提到的，蒙古人在统治中国时曾试图入侵日本。而神风两次都击败了蒙古舰队。但除此之外，中国从未入侵过日本，甚至从未试图入侵过日本。不幸的是，日本曾几次试图入侵中国。呃，第一次。时间
显然是1592年，当时的日宗
呃，当时的摄政王疯了，决定
征服世界，首先是入侵朝鲜，这是入侵中国的前奏
他失败了，正如你所知，嗯，死于
1598年，然后日本多次入侵中国
呃，从1894年开始，呃，直到二战
有一本非常感人的书，呃，实际上是我的一位伟大的同事和
老师埃兹拉·沃格尔写的，你一定认识他，埃兹拉·沃格尔是一位伟大的学者，研究中国和日本
他几年前去世了，但他的最后一本书叫做《中国
和日本面对历史》，他说我爱这两个国家，但它们
相处得并不好，所以我想写两国关系的历史
两国关系如下，作为两个儒家
文明
它们两千年来几乎一直处于和平状态，想想英国和法国，他们几乎两千年来一直在交战，几乎每年都在交战，
有时甚至几百年。但中国和日本都知道，僧侣会来，他们会
带回书法，他们会做各种各样的事情，但除了我刚才举的例子之外，他们并没有交战。
从1368年到
1839年，中日之间没有发生过战争，也就是从明朝初年到第一次鸦片战争中英国人抵达珠江。
除了日向先生，没有发生过战争。
呃，在短暂的逃亡中发疯，除此之外没有战争。有时它被称为
儒家和平，因为它有一个体系，但它基本上是一个
和平的贸易体系，一些象征性的朝贡，但完全和平。
然后英国来了，然后是
战争，然后是日本令人震惊的经济发展。从1868年开始的万历维新开始，日本在1871年做了一件非常辉煌的事情。它派遣了一个由重要大臣组成的代表团，
因为当时无法使用变焦镜头，所以他们在世界各地待了18个月，被称为“伊良浦使团”。
他们研究谁在所有方面做得最好，然后回来和平地实施所有这些，
谁建立了最好的中央银行，谁拥有宪法，谁拥有最好的大学，谁拥有各自最好的军队等等。他们吸收了所有模式，并显著地运用它们，只有一场小小的叛乱，那就是1877年的萨摩叛乱。除了那场和平之外，这是最成功的
转型，日本实现了工业化。但我关于工业化的观点是，
日本在1894年进攻中国，
中日两国两位重要的外交官
相遇了，埃兹拉·沃格尔在书中讲述了这个故事，中国外交官
沮丧地说：“你们为什么要进攻我们？”我们是亚洲人，我们正在被欧洲人入侵。
你们为什么要攻击我们？日本外交官说：“对不起，但是
我们已经加入了他们的俱乐部。” 这句话就是字面意思。呃，你知道，日本实现了工业化，所以它曾一度加入帝国俱乐部。
现在是2025年，是时候让日本和中国
说“我们在这个问题上是一致的，我们不需要美国的军事基地，我们
不需要，我们不需要被外来者分裂。
没有理由说中国不会入侵日本，中国没有理由不威胁日本。”这段时间根本没有威胁，我的观点只是给大家一个小秘密。
如果你们团结起来，你们绝对能主宰世界经济。
如果把日本的实力、韩国的实力、中国的实力和东盟的实力加在一起，天哪，没人能比得上。
或许能竞争，但对我们其他人来说会有点糟糕，但是呃。
但说真的，你们为什么还要分裂呢？所以在我看来，这才是真正的。呃，这是真正的建议，而检验这一点的关键在于外交。
外交意味着对话。我希望日本外长。
对王毅说，你真强大，你比我们强大10倍。
我们如何才能安全？我想听听王毅的回答，因为那将是一个
非常好的问题。我希望欧洲人去找普京先生，
说：“看，我们感到危险，你怎么能让我们感到危险？”你们最好不要在乌克兰之后入侵其他国家？“我很想听听你的答案，因为这是一个合理的问题。顺便说一句，我并不担心这个问题，理由有很多。但这是一个合理的问题。站在一旁说“你是敌人，我们要建立军队，我们要这样做”是不对的。甚至不用尝试外交手段，外交需要一张桌子和两把椅子，而军事每年需要一万亿美元，你认为哪个方案更好？
谢谢。我只是想针对大使的问题提出两点。首先，中国在很短的时间内，
帮助8亿人摆脱了贫困，这是人类历史上最大的一次扶贫。
事实上，如果你认真审视一下
西方完全误解的政府体制，大多数西方人会认为中国的政府模式
高度独裁。但如果你认真思考一下，你会发现
政府人员爬上高层的方式是企业界的杰夫。你看看津平，他
从底层爬上来，拥有非凡的组织能力，而不是
空降到顶层，你知道，他是在企业模式中一路爬上去的。
试想一下，如果全世界的企业界都选举
首席执行官和董事长，每五年选举一次。通过普选，我们无法自动获得国家，作为所有者和创始人，但如果你输了选举，你就输了。我认为，如果你把所有使用这种选举人票模式的公司都算进去，你会发现大多数公司都破产了。但我们要问自己的问题是，为什么在企业界，这个系统如此稳固和强大？为什么在政治领域，在管理政府时，我们不使用这个系统？你必须问一些根本性的问题。所以对我来说，中国模式很大程度上是一种企业模式。想想看，奥巴马当总统的时候，他管理的最大的机构是参议院，他只有50个人，所以他只有50个人。他从来没有管理过大型组织的经验。但在他支持之前的签名者拥有卓越的组织能力，才能让这一切顺利进行。我只是迈出了第一步，我只想……我想补充一点关于哈佛大学外国学生的事情，呃，1985年我收获了最好的一批学生。我曾经有过
之前或之后三位来自日本的学生，其中一位
成为了财务省副部长兼全球环境基金负责人，呃
第一位女性是财务省副部长，呃，石山直子，她现在是
东京大学的教授；第二位成为了一位伟大的教授和工业大臣，呃，高中羽造，呃，以及一位伟大的
受人尊敬的经济学家；第三位成为了日本皇后，所以这很有趣，哇
好的，接下来我不会居功，我只是很享受。下一个问题
在我的名单上，有一位是律师事务所合伙人维维·法泽拉娜，她现在在人群中吗？
是的，就在那里，是的。
好的，好的，请您站起来，这样我们
可以看看您的脸，谢谢，抱歉。
嗯，我叫维维，我是Jalan Nang的一家律师事务所的合伙人，我认识阿梅诺，我
一直是杰弗里教授的忠实粉丝，当我看到您和约翰的视频时在峰会上，我完全没有遇到任何对手，这对我来说意义非凡。我的问题是，基于我们迄今为止的观察，东盟经常发现自己
在中美之间徘徊。那么，我的问题是，战略中立
仍然是一个可行的长期姿态，还是东盟应该在中美之间确立更明确的立场？
谢谢。非常感谢。
非常感谢您。我认为，东盟国家当然应该寻求与世界各地建立良好关系，所以这个想法不应该是联盟。这个想法应该是，东盟是一个非常开放的贸易地区，如果美国仍然希望与欧洲和中国进行贸易，那么东盟就应该与美国进行贸易。
同时，还有两个重要的考虑因素：
美国不应该试图让东盟做出选择，这不仅不公平，而且如果东盟被迫做出选择，
这不仅不公平，而且如果东盟被迫做出选择，
那么选择的话，你当然会选择你的邻居中国，因为东盟离不开与中国良好的经济关系，这简直不可想象，所以美国不应该强迫或试图强迫东盟做出选择。如果美国试图实施二级制裁，阻碍东盟与中国的经济关系，那么实际上我们必须抵制这种做法，因为邻国需要贸易，需要拥有共同的基础设施，需要拥有交通光纤、河流管理等等。所以，我想说的是，目标当然应该是对所有人开放，应该给所有人提供好的建议，保持冷静，不要卷入冲突。我们不想卷入你们的冲突，根本就没有理由发生冲突。我稍后会再谈这个问题。嗯，不要让我们做出选择。同时，东盟应该与中国在基础设施和互联互通方面密切合作。这是一个邻国，“一带一路”倡议是一个非常……重要的积极举措
它说要建设高铁、可再生能源、数字系统，这对每个人都有好处，所以我会这样处理这个问题。
我总体上确实认为，虽然听起来有点天真，但总的来说，我认为应该取消外国军事基地。
所以随着时间的推移，我确实认为美国
应该离开，反正我们也负担不起。
特朗普总统说：“好吧，日本和韩国应该为我们的服务付费。”
我的观点是，日本和韩国应该说：“非常感谢，我们不需要
付费，呃，但如果你想离开，那也没关系，因为我们会坐在一起，
坐等两把椅子。”嗯，嗯，嗯，在我看来，这才是
嗯，正确的处理方式。
我有很多非常好的问题，但我发现其中一个特别令人兴奋，因为它
与您可能会给我们总理的建议有关，所以这个，丹尼尔
拉曼，哦，抱歉，这有点像主持人的特权，抱歉，如果可以的话，我想，嗯，这可能是一个有点争议的问题。
嗯，这是关于采取矛盾立场的问题。嗯，马来西亚总理最近似乎采取了
矛盾的立场，谴责俄罗斯22年的入侵，但去年却两次访问圣彼得堡。他敦促将缅甸从东盟中分离出来，但最近会见了本田领导人，谴责加沙种族灭绝，但仍然与武器供应国进行贸易，吹捧砖块。
同时肯定联合国和世贸组织，现在有些专栏文章将此称为
机会主义，而另一些人则认为这是政治家风范正在提升，超越你如何……呃，教授，你如何解读这些明显的矛盾？你认为阿诺阿总理需要做些什么才能使他的东盟主席任期取得成功？嗯，在我看来，他听起来像个政治家，而且是一位杰出的政治家，呃，他才华横溢，嗯，而且，呃，而且，他是一位非常优秀的马来西亚和东盟领导人，所以我非常乐观，呃，看，所有这些，呃，都需要一些微妙之处，但我会告诉你我的看法，呃，战争需要结束，这是……在乌克兰问题上，如果你回顾历史，呃，正如……我曾多次说过，如果美国能够忍耐，如果它没有推动北约扩张，呃，如果它没有在2014年发动政变，呃，如果它遵守了……明斯克二号协议，联合国安理会……如果拜登像我在2021年12月敦促白宫那样与普京进行谈判，那么乌克兰和俄罗斯在2022年4月即将实现和平，但美国却停止了谈判。所以，实际的重点实际上是结束战争。唐纳德·特朗普正在努力做到这一点，我认为包括阿努尔·易卜拉欣总理在内的所有人，都希望通过外交手段结束战争。外交是关键。谈到中东问题，我认为有一件显而易见的事情需要做。当然，我认为这是一个泥潭，这场战争已经持续了一百多年。我的同事拉希德·哈莱迪，一位很棒的同事，哥伦比亚大学的巴勒斯坦教授，最近写了一本书，名为《以色列对巴勒斯坦的百年战争》。我想这就是书名，或者说，差不多就是这个书名。基本上就是这样。他回顾了这样一个事实：现在的情况已经持续了一百多年。实际上，美国需要停止否决巴勒斯坦成为联合国第194个成员国，巴勒斯坦可以在一小时内成为一个国家，其边界将位于1967年6月4日公认的边界上。如果这一切真的发生，那么所有好事都会随之而来。阿拉伯联盟和伊斯兰合作组织20多年来一直反复强调，只有两国方案得以实施，我们才能与以色列实现关系正常化。以色列声称没有和平的可能性，这是一个谎言。他们撒谎是因为…他们不想要两个国家，他们想要一个以色列，
主宰一切，所以他们编造谎言试图证明这一点，这就是本质。
这到底是怎么回事？其他矛盾是什么？是的，总的来说，我不会
把一些国家踢出东盟，我会努力让邻国和睦相处。呃，你无法
改变你的邻居。我试图告诉乌克兰，他们可以为所欲为。
但俄罗斯仍将是他们的邻居，所以你最好和你的邻居和睦相处。顺便说一句，如果你的
邻居有点烦躁，呃，有点，你觉得有点
危险。如果我是你，我不会去挑衅邻居，戏弄邻居，
对邻居大喊大叫，放火烧他的垃圾桶，或者做其他类似的事情。
我会尽量善待邻居，这是我的做法。所以总的来说，
我会尝试在邻里之间找到解决方案，而不是采取行动
把一些国家踢出去。我会尝试找到解决方案。
我选择另一个问题，因为这是他们给出的建议。向杰夫·西迪克（Jeff Sidik）寻求政治家的建议，我们请教了几位政客。
前排和后排都有一些政客。所以问题来自汇丰银行的达图·奥马尔·西迪克（Datu Omar Sidik）。
顺便说一下，这位是首席执行官。
萨克斯教授，非常荣幸，非常感谢。嗯，我想谈谈您早期在玻利维亚和波兰的一些工作。
例如，您曾建议政府做出非常艰难的决定，
以对抗既得利益，并进行真正的市场改革。
这些改革在经济增长和应对通货膨胀方面取得了良好的成果。
在当今世界，我们生活在一个物质富足的世界，但在阿富汗，尤其是在马来西亚，仍然存在着严重的社会不平等。
在教育和医疗保健方面，社会不平等现象严重。
您认为需要什么才能激励大企业政府，
使其能够以公平的方式分配资源？获得教育、公平获得医疗保健的机会，以及让他们能够在环境问题上做出正确的决定。马来西亚具体能做些什么？谢谢，谢谢，非常感谢。让我说一下。关于我早期在玻利维亚提出的建议，我有两点看法。玻利维亚在2020年中期，也就是1984年中期到1985年期间，经历了24000%的恶性通货膨胀。当时我被要求帮助波兰。波兰当时正面临共产主义时期末期的戏剧性事件和严重的经济危机。首先，当发生严重的经济危机时，你可能需要非常果断的措施，而且这些措施需要妥善执行。所以我建议采取非常果断的措施。其次，我当时还很年轻。我不知道我现在是否有勇气去做这件事，因为在某种程度上，这是年轻人的举动。但是他们谢天谢地，这招管用，不然我
也不会坐在这里了，呃，至少那两个办法管用，但大多数时候
你不会面临那样的危机，恶性通货膨胀是一种非常罕见的现象，
这些基本上是国家崩溃的特殊时刻，当
国家崩溃时，你必须采取行动来拯救国家，
而且，这就是我提出的建议的本质。
你提到的那些问题，
在性质上非常不同，它们是长期的
呃，社会问题。既然我们在一所
教育机构，而且是一所优秀的机构，
那么让我简单谈谈教育，
说实话，呃，不是
呃，只是一种华丽的辞藻或道德宣言，
事实上，
一个社会投资的最高经济回报率是
教育。这听起来可能令人惊讶，但从经济角度来看，
财政部长应该特别关注教育投资。
当然，问题是，教育投资有点长期，你知道，尽管
技术进步如此之快，它仍然需要一个孩子从5岁到25岁需要20年的时间，而机器人大约只需要3个小时就能完成。顺便说一下，我们所有的机器人主要来自中国。未来10年，人们大约30分钟就能拿到博士学位。如果你想要不同的博士学位，那30分钟也不同。所以，你会拥有一个会走路、会说话的……生物化学、天文学……物理学……经济学、金融学等等的博士，而且机器人还会洗碗。所以，这是我们即将经历的改变。但对我们人类来说，接受教育真的很棒，这是人生中最棒的礼物。教育是我们父母给予我们最棒的礼物，除了他们给予的爱和我们的生存之外，教育也是最重要的，因为教育是最重要的赋能，尤其是在这个复杂的世界里。否则你无法理解这一切。呃，如果……呃，今天你无法做到这一点
在世界上的任何地方至少完成中学教育，并且拥有高质量的中学教育，但这基本上
不足以建立人们想要的社会，然而在非洲南部
今天只有30%的孩子完成了中学教育，而且没有达到
高质量的水平，所以他们没有他们甚至没有学到他们应该学到的东西，那30%，所以事实上，
我计算过，投资教育的社会回报率是
20% 的复合年回报率，甚至
更高一点，你无法超越，呃，这比大型科技公司要好，
比你要投资的任何其他东西都要好，所以财政部长和
各级教育部长应该真正合作，让这个模式发挥作用，
如果你看看这个地区，谁是世界上教育水平最高的国家，
根据15岁学生的标准化考试，呃，呃，国际学生成就项目，
经合组织的，所有这些国家都是东亚国家，123456，
顺便说一下，除了新加坡，
而不是东盟国家，新加坡位居榜首，
这很重要，越南做得非常好，呃，远远领先于其收入水平，
中国没有做到全国，但
丹增，上海和北京绝对位居榜首，香港、台湾、新加坡、韩国和日本都位居榜首。
一流的教育，我们应该从中学习。教育领域确实发生了一些非常好的事情。
教育，也深深地融入了文化，父母在推动着孩子们。
孩子们最好表现出色。这也是一件非常了不起的事情。
非常美妙的事情。所以在我看来，毫无疑问，这是一项公共投资。
投资应该成为优先事项。当然，一旦你实现了
普及教育，不仅要普及高中教育，还要普及相当一部分大学教育。
然后是科技投资。
这是日本从尖端技术国家迈出的辉煌一步，
使其成为一个伟大的创新者。而中国也出色地掌握了这一步。
在过去的15年里，你看看现在的研究排名，中国在很多领域都领先于美国。
就发表的重要论文数量而言，这需要大量的公共投资，所以政府应该投资于此。顺便说一下，医疗保健既是核心的福祉维度，我们想要活下去，想要健康，嗯，技术让我们能够更成功地做到这一点。嗯，实际上，这是一方面，但另一方面，健康也是一种投资。不健康的孩子就无法学习，嗯，健康状况不佳，嗯，营养不良，实际上会导致终身残疾和营养不良。所以，这些在国民收入账户中是非常实际的考虑，但它们完全被错误地理解了，因为它们被称为消费支出。如果它们被称为投资支出，那简直是荒谬至极。我们至少应该知道，这些是对未来的投资，但国民收入账户在20世纪30年代编制时，将它们列为消费支出，而且这个问题从那以后就再也没有得到解决。所以，关键在于，这不应该是一个难题。这不需要紧急情况，也不需要你，嗯，伟大的英雄主义才能做到。这应该是。马来西亚要实现其目前想要实现的目标，其核心理念在于在科学技术前沿领域取得重大突破，而这是一个投资过程。我来看一下相关的问题，其中一个来自D Mahinda Singh，他曾担任教育??部顾问，你看人群中……他在吗？如果不在，我来读一下问题。好的，好的。从你的角度来看，Jeff，在基础教育和高等教育层面，优质教育体系的当前和未来指标是什么？这个问题问得非常好。我的答案分为两部分：一部分是核心技能，了解我们的世界，科学技术，教育，数学，STEM技能，所以首先要掌握基本技能，这是基础，也是PISA衡量的标准。所以，顺便提一下，看看PISA的分数，比如一些国家，当它们的PISA分数排名高时，它们会说测试很糟糕。这很武断。我的建议是认真对待测试。嗯，最好进行基准测试。嗯，了解你的水平，以及你能从这种系统全面的测量方法中学到什么。顺便说一下，负责经合组织测试的安德里亚·施莱克是一位非常优秀的教育家，非常认真，他出色地完成了这项测试，使测试变得有意义。但教育的第二部分是在可持续发展目标下。可持续发展目标4是全民优质教育，可持续发展目标4.7是一个很棒的目标，你可以在网上查到。它关于学习在我们的世界中生活，学习和平文化。学习尊重其他文明，学习可持续发展。了解我们世界上正在发生的事情，尊重世界各地的社会。以及在和平文化中共同生活在这个星球上的理念。这被完美地表达为一个目标，它是潘基文最喜欢的目标之一。嗯，当他…秘书长称之为
全球公民，即学习成为全球公民的技能，这
也极其重要，因为这是我们的现实世界，我们知道这有多么艰难。
当孩子们在仇恨的环境中长大时，这种情况在世界各地都有发生。他们的教育体系告诉他们，其他国家是永久的敌人，或者其他文明是永久的敌人。这就是造成当今世界如此多伤害的原因。
所以，我们希望我们的孩子长大后也能成为
好人，这意味着要接受道德教育，这意味着要接受
尊重他人的教育，这是道德教育的根本。
下一个问题有点出人意料，与教皇有关。这是来自双威集团副主席兼总裁D·A·阿纳的。
他来了吗？
A·阿纳，请给他麦克风道歉。
我们很荣幸
能来到这里。呃，问题是，选择一位美国人担任教皇是否会
为我们生活的世界提供某种平衡？如果
是的话，会以什么方式实现？是的。这是一个很好的问题，答案是肯定的。嗯，美国人确实对这位来自芝加哥南部的教皇感到非常兴奋，他们对此非常关注。
这是一件很棒的事情，因为从我们对利奥十四世教皇的了解来看，他将会是一位非常出色的教皇。
他的背景非常独特，加勒比海背景，嗯，
嗯，他的父母来自新奥尔良，他出生在芝加哥，嗯，他的大部分牧灵工作都在秘鲁，嗯，他受过良好的基督教或天主教社会思想的熏陶，我非常钦佩托马斯·阿奎那。托马斯·阿奎那是一位……嗯，托马斯·阿奎那曾是巴黎大学的教授，嗯，在12世纪到1274年间，嗯，嗯他是一位
杰出的哲学家和
神学家，他汲取了亚里士多德的哲学，从基督教的角度来看，亚里士多德的哲学是一种异教哲学，因为它
是前基督教的。他将亚里士多德的哲学与基督教神学相结合，
并进行了伟大的综合，有时这被称为信仰与理性的综合。教皇利奥一世十四世也受过这种传统的熏陶，他实际上就读于圣托马斯·阿奎那大学。他之所以选择利奥一世十四世这个名字，是因为
前任利奥一世是利奥一世十三世，他是
19世纪末的教皇。利奥一世十三世是一位杰出的教皇，他
从1891年开始颁布了一系列教皇教义或通谕，被称为教会的现代社会教义。1891年，第一篇通谕用拉丁文写成，名为《新约》（raram novarum）。呃，这意味着新事物，教皇说，在工业时代，“我们需要教会跟上现代的步伐”。这奠定了130年来教皇谈论时事的传统，利奥一世教皇于14世以此命名。我认为，为了传承这一传统，他的前任教皇方济各也发表了精彩的通谕。我非常了解他，也非常敬爱他。2015年，他发表了一篇关于气候变化的精彩通谕，名为《拉托海》。令人惊讶的是，天主教会召集了气候科学家，举行了多次会议，帮助教皇掌握关于实际气候科学的前沿知识。所以，这不仅仅是一次神学反思或周日布道，它基于最前沿的科学知识。2019年，教皇方济各又发表了一篇通谕，名为《兄弟同在》，内容是关于外交的。这封通谕的由来，是一位天主教圣徒圣方济各的真实故事，方济各教皇的名字也由此而来。艾兹的方济各
他于1219年从意大利前往
埃及，会见了穆斯林苏丹基姆勒·马利克。
在第五次十字军东征的战场上，他试图劝服苏丹皈依伊斯兰教，但他没有
成功，但他们进行了一次精彩的会面，他们彻夜讨论了宗教问题。出于感激，苏丹没有杀死圣方济各，他
带领他和平地离开了战场，回到了基督教阵营。
这次会面恰好在700年后，不好意思，是800年后，被教皇方济各提及，他把这本天主教通谕献给了开罗阿拉哈尔大学的祖母，因为他
说，这就是我们的世界，基督徒和穆斯林和平地相遇，
所以我提到这一切，是因为这个这是
教皇利奥十四世将遵循的传统，这非常令人期待。我想今天的内容就到这里，我知道今天是一场非常非常
有趣的会议，我觉得你甚至能听到针掉在地上的声音，这几乎比Netflix更好。我想我们都同意，杰弗里·萨克斯教授是一位开明的文艺复兴者，我们今天听到的是一位真正的
大师，一位真正的大师，他对人类历史的观察。他认为，我们必须从广阔的视野来看待历史，而不是
短周期的视角。如果你仔细观察通过研究经济学和历史，我们变得更加明智，因为我们听到过很多关于各种主题的智慧，今天听到了很多智慧，可能也是我在播客中听到过的最好的，我们承诺过，我们会把其中很多内容放到网上，这样更多的人就能从我们今天获得的智慧中受益，这就是我们承诺过的，非常感谢，再次给杰夫·萨克斯最好的马来西亚掌声，谢谢你，太棒了，谢谢，非常感谢特里博士，女士们先生们，在我们结束之前，请各位就座，因为我们只剩下一个非常简短的结束语了，主持人特里博士，杰法爵士，嗯，你知道，作为最后的总结，先生，现在轮到你了，非常感谢伊德里斯和萨克斯教授。是的，当然，正如你所知，idris 是我们 sam parad 的联合主席，sax 教授当然是 jeffrey cha，sam 大学的荣誉教授。是的，我真的很惊讶你
能记住所有的事件和日期，而我甚至不记得我的生日日期了。[笑声]
我相信你一定觉得 sex 教授的见解很有价值，也很有影响力，这正是我们为通过 sam 大学与 jeff 合作而感到自豪的原因。我们面临的挑战是巨大的，而且非常艰巨。在这种情况下，我坚信，世界只有在团结一致的情况下才能运转得最好。女士们，先生们，从很小的时候起，我就坚信每个人都必须有更高的人生目标。对我来说，更高的使命是致力于以有意义和影响力的方式回馈社会，并通过优质教育和知识共享来建设国家，我作为一名企业家的成功让我
得以创立杰弗里·查基金会 (Jeffrey Cha Foundation)，以实现我的慈善目标。
迄今为止，该基金会是马来西亚同类基金会中规模最大的，致力于推动教育发展，已颁发近9亿林吉特的奖学金。我相信，到明年，我们的奖学金总额将超过10亿林吉特。换句话说，我活得越久，我捐赠的就越多。正如大家所知，到本世纪末，Sunwave 将拥有超过10家医院，我们将有超过1000名医生照顾我，所以我应该能够实现我的愿望。基金会当然已经向联合国可持续发展解决方案网络 (SDSN) 捐赠了2000万美元，以帮助该组织履行其在全球推进可持续发展议程的使命。我们对联合国可持续发展解决方案网络 (SDSN) 的支持源于其名称——联合国可持续发展解决方案网络，其关键词是“解决方案”。今天萨克斯教授在休斯顿大学的演讲，也是我们使命的另一个典型例子，即为马来西亚和更广泛的亚洲地区带来尖端研究和世界一流的专业知识，以开展我们正在开展的工作。我希望双威基金会和杰弗里·查基金会能够激励本地区更多组织致力于可持续发展议程，这与我的个人座右铭非常一致，那就是在我去世之前，我渴望激励他人。杰弗里，正如我之前提到的，我们非常感谢您与我们共度时光，即使您为了人类的更大利益而周游世界，我真的很担心您和您家人的安全。我谨代表在座的各位，真诚地祝愿您健康长寿，感谢您为世界所做的一切工作。请保重，照顾好自己，愿上帝保佑您。再次感谢各位女士们先生们，非常感谢国家主席先生，感谢您强有力的鼓舞人心的信息。女士们先生们，我代表组织者感谢你们今天的到来。嗯，我当然会邀请所有嘉宾来参加社交活动，并为媒体成员提供茶点。请到我们大厅前面来，现在请和我一起起立，为斯里·贾拉博士、杰弗里·萨克斯教授和坦特里·萨克斯鼓掌。

Jeffrey Sachs Reveals How China Becomes a Successful Country

Rise of Asia  2025年6月9日 

In this powerful talk, Professor Jeffrey Sachs breaks down the common myths about democracy versus authoritarianism and explains why the real measure of a government isn’t its label — but how well it serves its people. He takes a deep dive into China’s rise and reveals the key reasons behind its remarkable success on the global stage. Whether you agree or not, this perspective will definitely make you think twice about how we judge different political systems.

good afternoon ladies and gentlemen minister of housing and local government of malaysia juan michelle mei member of the slango state legislative assembly for subangaya yang bahaga tansri s dr jeffrey chia founder chancellor sunway university and founder and chairman of sunway group professor jeffrey saxs our sir jeffrey chia honorary distinguished professor at sunway university and president of the united nations
sustainable development solutions network un sdsn yangar bahaga professor dutri dr
idris jala pro-chancellor of sunway university bahaga professor da dr elizabeth lee group ceo of sunway education professor sibbrandes poppa president of sunway university distinguished guest members of the diplomatic community colleagues members of the media friends and to everyone joining us this afternoon thank you for being here my name is daniel rahman i'm the chief executive officer of the asian strategy and leadership institute or asn and is and it is my pleasure to convene today's dialogue distinguished guests ladies and gentlemen today's dialogue with professor jeffrey saxs titled asean in
the midst of shifting global order is led by sunway university together with
the jeffrey sax center on sustainable development and all of which are owned
and governed by the jeffrey cha foundation sunway university established in 2011 is proud to be ranked the number one non-government linked private university in asean and recently rose to 141 in the times higher education asia university rankings 2025 its highest position yet most importantly as a not-for-profit research intensive university sunway university is deeply committed to impactful research and sustainabilitydriven innovation supported by worldclass partners and its unique location in sunway city koala lumpur which is malaysia's model smart sustainable and green township and as malaysia chairs asean this year and is what has brought all of us here together and the asean summit coming up next week or coming up very soon and of course may traffic be kind to all of us we believe it is vital to hear from global thought leaders like professor saxs whose voice has shaped international development discourse for decades it's a true privilege and honor to have him here today ladies and gentlemen and now oh yeah you
can give him a round of applause of course very kind of all of you and now to get things going it is my great honor to invite today's host a visionary leader whose commitment to sustainable development and education has garnered global recognition he's the founder and chancellor of sunu university and founder chairman sani group with that i invite tantri duter dr jeffrey chia to deliver his welcoming remarks country the applause here
excellencies and distinguished guests ladies and gentlemen sorry that i have to use this room because i know with jeffree sex professor jeffrey sax here the response will be overwhelming but unfortunately our boardroom is booked our convention gender is also booked by others i can't do much but we have to do it here so i think uh you bear with us a very good afternoon and welcome to san city kolo lumpo it give me great pleasure to play host to the special dialogue on prof with professor jeffrey sax titled asan amidst the shifting global order professor sax is chairman of the jeffrey sax center on sustainable development at sunway university as well as the jeffrey chia honorary professor at sunway university he is of course a tireless campaigner for the sustainability agenda in his role as president of the united nation sustainable development solutions network or unsdsn he has served as a special advisor to three un secretaries general including the incumbent antonio gutaris and professor saxs is here in
malaysia to participate in the asian summit next week and we are pleased to have this opportunity to host him today to tap into his insight on global events and issues i regard it a great honor jeff and privilege to consider him and his family longstanding
friends sonia is not the wife sonia is not with us this time but around but his
daughter professor lisa sex is here where is lisa hi lisa hi and professor lisa saxs is a distinguished expert in her own right and currently director of the colombia center on sustainable investment my friend jeffrey welcome home each time you return you enrich all of us with your great wisdom insights and perspective and we are grateful for the time you share with us i will also like to welcome our honorable minister minister of housing and local government young brahman to this dialogue and of course we also have our sububang jaya atun young brahman here with us today we welcome also your excellencies ambassadors of japan high commissioner of australia as well as representatives from the embassy of russia brazil azer ban is that the name great as well as the high commission of the uk pakistan sri lanka and nigeria many extreme corporate leaders and bankers are also here welcome in fact we have such an overwhelming respond that we could not accommodate all like i said who have signed up and had to open a few satellite rooms next door for this dialogue and we could not hold this event in the grand ballroom like i said and the convention center with larger capacity as they have been fully booked ladies and gentlemen we are living in turbulent times to say the least in addition to climate change and wars in europe and the middle east we are now in an era where geopolitical tensions are perhaps at their highest level since the end of the cold war and the 17 united nations sustainable development goals and the paris climate agreement were supposed to
put us back on the right track but recent reports on both fronts indicate we are way off the track now in other words we are failing our children and our future generations yes it is very serious many people are very worried and i'm told by some of our professors that many climate scientists are suffering from despair and depression jeff in dedicating your career to the advancement of sustainable development and world peace to justice and fairness to wiping out the curse of poverty and hunger you have made some powerful enemies even as you fearlessly continue to pursue these noble causes i just i trust
you are taking every precaution to ensure the safety and well-being of yourself and your
family this predicament is a reflection of the strange times that we live in while we greatly appreciate your work we care for your safety j as you ladies and gentlemen the ashan submit chair by malaysia begins next week it is hardening to note that the agenda laid out by the our prime minister dad sri amay ibrahim is built around a vision of shared progress guided by the theme of inclusivity and sustainability the asia headquarters of the un sdsn based here at sunway university and one of the only three such centers in the world is fully committed to playing its part in advancing this objectives and of course the other two of two centers are in new york and paris and together with professor s we will also be convening a high level strategic session on asean's integrated energy and digital future this sunday on the eve of the assean semit at sunway university our un sdsn asia team here has put together a program comprising senior officials in the public and private sectors across assean to unlock the immense potential of the assean power grid and an integrated digital economy i invite all of you to join us then ladies and gentlemen our share aspiration in asean for a more inclusive prosperous and sustainable future is a source of hope and posit positivity in these times of turmoil and turbulence and like all of you here today i very much look forward to hearing the views and insights that professor saxs has to offer as we navigate through the challenges that are confronting us today without further ado jeff i hand the mic to you thank you well [Applause] maybe i'll stand here if it's okay y good afternoon tanrey thank you so much it is like being at home uh it is home in fact and both lisa and i are thrilled to be here i'm thrilled that i'm on stage and lisa is in the audience because usually when i go someplace now they say "oh you're lisa sax's father." uh so she has to look at me this time rather than the other way around but she's a professor at columbia university teaching climate finance which is very relevant for our discussion and for the challenges of the next uh the next days at this very important acsean china gcc summit the summit itself is uh a sign of the times it brings together uh the great expanse of asia uh china asean and western asia uh and this is the dynamic rim of the world economy today and so this upcoming summit is a very promising opportunity and a great tribute to malaysia also as president of acsean i'm sure that it's going to be a spectacular success in the coming week and also the malaysian presidency of asean is going to be a spectacular success there's a lot to do and i'm convinced that asean's going to do it
my main theme actually is that with all of the turmoil and no doubt serious risks there
are true reasons not only rhetorical but true reasons to be optimistic uh the
world is disrupted and changing rapidly and it is changing in frightening ways
in in uh on the surface but i want to argue that below the surface the deeper
trends are positive uh and not only positive uh powerful as well so the
notion of sustainable development which sunway university champions and you see
it in the signs everywhere of the sustainable development goals that is the right track and while there is a lot of work to do it is the path that i believe the world is going to achieve it needs to achieve it it can achieve it and that combination of both need and capacity to my mind uh suggests that we are going to find our way forward the theme today is the disruption uh the shift in global order and of course we do feel every day how fast the times are changing and therefore how unpredictable events seem day to day and there are fundamental reasons for this dramatic feeling uh this great uncertainty dayto-day uh of course the world economy is changing dramatically uh i wouldn't say before our eyes every day but year to year and decade to decade there is profound transformation underway at the core is something quite important and that is that asia has ended a long period of domination by europe and by the united states of the world economy uh and asia has restored its place as the center of gravity of the world economy the place that asia
has had for most of the last 2,000 years actually with the interruption of the period of the industrial revolution which came first to europe was the engine if i could put it that way of european imperialism and roughly 250 years of european dominance and that period is ending and in fact it is that rapid catching up of asia and the geopolitical changes that are caused by that rapid catching up that give the sense of the profound disruption and uncertainty of our time but because the underlying reason for this change is the rapid development of this part of the world northeast asia southeast asia western asia the countries that we'll be meeting in the coming week even though this change is very disruptive it is not a cause of panic but rather when one steps back a cause
for optimism m because what has happened is that a world that was profoundly
divided by power and technology is now truly a multipolar world in which the
united states and europe no doubt remain very sophisticated societies very
powerful societies but no longer dominant societies of the world we've
entered the age truly of multipolarity that's a big challenge but it's also a wonderful fact and great opportunity a world dominated by europe and then after europe by the united states in the second half of the 20th century was not the kind of world that we wanted a world in which one small part of the world had predominance in technology in military power in wealth in finance over the rest of the world we have wanted a world in which these benefits of technology are widely shared and we have it now so this is the first point that i would make the fundamental economic fact of our time is what economists call conditional convergence and that is the ability of countries for whatever historical reason that are technologically and economically behind others whether it's in income or in the roll out of infrastructure and technology have the chance to catch up
or to leapfrog those that were in the lead because when they build the new
infrastructure believe me that's leaprogging if you want a reminder of that fly into an airport in the united states and you'll be uh you'll remember uh that this region of the world is truly leaprogging uh and developing uh an infrastructure that is more modern
more 21st century uh than you'll find in uh some of the so-called advanced economies of the world now this economic change is undoubtedly creating geopolitical tensions that are very dangerous in the short term and i will come back to those in a moment but i want to say that we have other drivers of fundamental change as well as the economic convergence and i should mention that i use the phrase conditional convergence which means that
catching up or leaprogging is not automatic in any sense it's only a potentiality of an economy or of a region it's possible to mess up in this world if governance is bad if economic strategies are bad if uh the public sector does not perform alongside the private sector then that potentiality is not achieved but the chance to grow faster the ability to grow very rapidly is the fact of our time right now and the reality of our time is that almost all of asia is taking advantage of that and has been in recent decades we have of course had 40 years of remarkable growth of the people's republic of china we have rapid growth throughout most though not all of asean we now have india growing at 6 to 7% per year the fastest growth rate in fact of a major economy in the world that's a major change as well underway and we see that kind of rapid economic development in other parts of asia i'll indicate in just a few minutes that i think the same will happen in africa which is by far the most laggered region of the world economy for many reasons of history and physical geography but this will be an age in the next 40 years of rapid economic development in africa as well now in addition to the economic change and the geopolitical change are three other major disruptive forces all interconnected but both the driver of the economic change and the greatest propellant of disruption today is the extraordinary rate of technological change as well this isn't an automatic uh fact but it just happens uh and it was by no means guaranteed that the digital revolution is proving far more revolutionary and productive than was widely expected even 10 or 20 years ago we all know it and feel it every hour of our day the
artificial intelligence advances the large language models these seemingly
just uh sprang upon us in the last few years and for most of us that was the
fact of course uh the uh scientists the computer scientists the mathematicians
the electrical engineers uh the uh others in this field have been developing the underlying reality of this revolution uh at least for 75 years uh one could probably date the digital revolution to alan turing's imagination in 1936 and john von noman's brilliance in the early 1940s but it required cascades of advances of the transistor of uh the integrated circuit uh of uh semiconductors and microprocessors of connectivity of the uh worldwide web being invented uh of artificial intelligence and neural networks which was first conceived in uh the 1950s declared a dead end around 1970 and the
miracle of our time today so much has happened over now 90 years that has brought us to a pace of advance that is unparalleled and what's fascinating about this digital revolution is that it's revolutionizing every field of science so it's not only computation and artificial intelligence but what that means for biological sciences for material sciences for every other dimension of science and technology it's being profoundly impacted by these technologies the reason that this is so disruptive of course is that any profound technological change changes the way we work we live uh how our cities are are laid out uh the paths of urbanization the time allocation of uh our lives whether we're staring at
screens most of the time whether we're physically at work whether we're commuting all of this has changed through waves of technological advance and they will change probably more radically than uh ever before in the coming 25 years and in ways that are still to a large extent unknown and perhaps even unknowable at this stage now in addition
to all of this the economic the geopolitical and the technological change of course is the ecological disaster that is rising at the same time again not accidentally or incidentally but the economic success has had side effects and the main side effects that are dramatic and adverse of course are the ecological side effects the modern world economy grew up on fossil fuels fossil fuels just by accident not because they're fossil
fuels per se but by accident have the property that when they are burned they change the climate this is an accident uh it means not that fossil fuels are immoral or something wrong with them other than a quantum mechanical property of carbon dioxide which is the bad luck that it happens to absorb infrared radiation and the fact that carbon dioxide in the atmosphere because of the uh fact of the three atoms of co2 to configured in the
way they are means that the rising concentrations of carbon dioxide are warming the planet this is bad luck uh it's bad luck in the sense that it didn't have to be this way
there are many uh many compounds that are not in their quantum mechanical properties greenhouse gases but carbon dioxide happens to be one of them and this was realized by the way ladies and gentlemen 129 years ago definitively so it's not news exactly uh the chemist svant iranius the nobel swedish laurate in 1896 with pencil and paper literally no computer model of course because there were no computers no climate models because there was no such thing as climate modeling but with the brilliance of understanding the implication of the spectrum of absorption of co2 that had been demonstrated in the laboratory uh in the 1880s and 1890s understood that more co2 would warm the planet and with paper and pencil apparently over an 18-month period arranius reached the conclusion that if co2 doubles in the atmosphere that would lead to around 5°c warming and that so-called climate sensitivity turns out 129 years later to be right on the mark uh actually uh right on the mark in an absolutely alarming way because up until a few years ago it was said that iranius was wrong that he overestimated the climate sensitivity because of various feedbacks and the ipcc that intergovernmental panel that gives us the consensus on science said that the climate sensitivity is quote only 3° c for a doubling of co2
to i had a very i have a very annoying colleague at columbia university uh who
happens to be a genius uh and a very brave man and america's leading climatologist named james hansen i've mentioned him each time i speak here because he always gives me bad news uh and so i like to share the bad news just to get it off my back but he wrote a paper earlier this year that said "no all of the evidence put together now of earth observation of the energy imbalance which now can be directly measured by satellites and the paleoclimate record of how temperatures changed in the ancient climate suggests that the sensitivity is 4.8° 8° c for a doubling of co2 and hansen is very annoying by the way because for 40 years he's been right on just about everything and he just scared the wits out of me for 25 years as my quiet colleague because he'd come up to me and said "jeff it's it's much worse than we think." uh and this is uh actually the findings you'll all know that we breached the 1.5° sea level which we said 10 years ago at the paris climate conference we would not allow to happen and just 10 years later way ahead of the predicted course we reached 1.5 degrees warming compared to the pre-industrial temperature which is usually taken to be the average 1850 to 1900 or 1880 to 1920
as the base we're now 1.5 degrees higher than that when that happened 3 years ago
was said well that's just temporary that's an el nino effect but now we've
gone through an el nino to a leninia to neutral and the temperature is hanging
at 1.5° c and hansen argues and many other climate scientists now argue that's because the underlying sensitivity is higher than we thought and some of the warming had been hidden from view because of pollution from ocean shipping specifically sulfate aerosols that was dimming the sunlight but as the ocean shipping got cleaned up that exposed the underlying faster rate of warming well suffice it to say ladies and gentlemen this climatological change is part of a more general ecological disaster that is unfolding
that we still have not come to grips with because it's not only the climate change and all the effects from climate change it's also the massive disruptions to ecosystems think about all of the deforestation of malaysia throughout southeast asia it's taking place in the congo basin it's taking place in the amazon many of the rainforest regions are reaching tipping points because rainforests provide their own uh rainfall uh by the way they transport rainfall along the margins of rainforests through the hydraologic cycle that they induce and it's possible to reach tipping points where you chop down enough rainforest and you convert to dryland and this is happening in the southern amazon for example which is close to a tipping point at this stage well it's not only the rainforests that are a threat it is our wetland land areas our alpine areas uh the boreal
regions of the world the fisheries of the world the coastal regions of the world they're all under assault so we have a major loss of species a growing list of species at risk of extinction a growing list of ecosystems at risk of reaching tipping points where they flip into some kind of ecological failure then add a third dimension of the ecological catastrophe and that is the chemical pollutants which are now pervasive in our bodies the
microplastics in our brains uh we are living in a sea of chemical pollutants
because we have a modern uh chemistry prochemical industry and it creates not
only plastics and other things that we use but it creates pervasive pollution
of the air the fresh water the soils the oceans now it doesn't sound like i'm on
an optimistic note but let me just hasten to add quickly there are solutions to these challenges there are ways to do things that we now understand that scientists and technologists have invented that give us the way out the problem is applying them at the speed the scope the scale to actually solve these problems the fundamental problems are therefore political they are not technological because the options exist to solve these
problems but we are not solving them at scale the last disruptor that i want to
mention is the demographic change because we're in a period of rapid demographic change it comes in many varieties depending on which part of the world in parts of asia the rapid demographic change is the end of population growth and the rapid aging of the population and actually not only reaching peak population but now entering a period of rapid decline of population china is exhibit a china has reached its peak population and if you take a reasonable extrapolation of china's demography china's population will fall
below a billion people by the end of the century but arguably and quite possibly
below 800 million so there will be a dramatic decline because the fertility
rates are so low at the same time the aging of the population will be significant with the median age near 60 years old uh this is quite a change of society ahead other parts of the world are still in a rapid population growth and africa is the continent that still has very high fertility rates and will therefore expand from the current 1.4 4 billion people to perhaps 2 and a half billion by midentury rising from about 18% of the
world population to more than 25% of the world population and if you extrapolate
somewhat mechanically because it's risky to make too many extrapolations too far
africa's population reaches nearly 4 billion people by 2100 in a world of
about 10 billion overall so almost 40% of the world population from around 10%
at mid 20th century from 1950 to 2100 so we have massive change of population as well and that means massive change of migration that means massive changes of the location of economic activity and so forth well you put all of this together clearly we are at a period of extraordinarily disruptive change and we feel the earth shaking and we feel that no one is quite in control but there's one more element that i think is
important and notable i don't know how to put this politely but uh the united states is
having a nervous breakdown uh so this is another element of what is happening the us was for decades the most powerful country in the world the dominant economy and the technological leader two world wars brought that about rather spectacularly because two world wars ended europe's dominance because these were wars that were essentially european civil wars in that part of the world as destructive at industrial scale uh as cruel as horrific as ever could be imagined and that happened twice between 1914 and 1945
so by the end of that period europe was physically destroyed europe was morally
depleted and europe was financially bankrupt as well and that was also the
end of the imperial era for this region because europe was exhausted some countries tried to fight it for a while but reality caught up with everybody and european imperialism other than a few islands and another one changed hands yesterday with britain seeding another island uh um basically this period of european dominance came to an end and the united states became the sole uh major power because the united states in two world wars had only one day of those wars fought on american soil and that was of course december 7th 1941 when japan attacked the naval base in pearl harbor other than that the us just built its industry built its technologies advanced its technologies and world war ii was a period of astounding technological advance linked to the wartime effort uh the discovery of inventions of radar of semiconductors of uh all sorts of avionic and aeronautic advances of rocketry and uh and uh cybernetics and computers and so many other advances that came out of world war ii and hitler's insanity drove a whole generation of the world's leading scientists to the united states shores those that survived and so the us had not only the unique physical infrastructure and the unique scale of industry but it had the scientific leadership of the world with the partial exception of uh great scientists in the soviet union uh but with that one exception the us dominated and the us believed that that meant the dominance basically forever because when countries come to power in this way they believe their own virtue they read their own headlines they read their own press releases and the press release of the united states was the
american century uh this was labeled in 1941 by henry loose we're not quite
there for a century but they didn't quite make it for a hundred years but the united states thought that it would last as the dominant power of the world indefinitely let's say and for decades the us did lead technologically but smart people ideas education science and technology travels it diffuses and other parts of the world develop their
own home turf for these advances as well and i won't belabor this story except to say that the uh rise of first japan from the uh devastation of world war ii and then the so-called asian tigers uh taiwan hong kong uh singapore um sorry and as sorry i'm missing one and korea excuse me south korea republic of korea those four following the japanese model uh by the way in in a lot of ways in some cases almost literally institutionally uh achieved rapid growth and then china uh observed finally by the end of the cultural revolution that it could do the same thing and by today one has to say that east asia absolutely rivals the united states uh in technological leadership uh china in particular across a very wide swath of technologies is uh at par or ahead of the united states and in terms of production not only design and conception no doubt asia is far ahead of the united states in actually producing the advanced technologies of the 21st century so the united states didn't count on that uh but what has happened is even more interesting i would say geopolitically and that is the us had a very good run no doubt and it was
dominant financially economically and technologically throughout the cold war period with a real rivalry from the soviet union in the military sphere and in space technology at least briefly but when the soviet union dissolved uh into its 15 constituent republics at the end of 1991 in the american mind that confirmed it's not only the american centuries maybe it's the american millennium uh the idea was that there could be no rival anywhere for decades to come and now america absolutely ran the show who could even come close uh to the united states with the soviet union gone uh and the us considering most other parts of the world wholly owned subsidiaries uh of the us politics and and us soft empire
if i could put it that way well they're not very good economists in washington i
have to tell you they don't know how to look ahead they don't understand the deeper trends they never understood china and they still don't understand china from then until today there was no forward perception china was a useful rice growing ally against the soviet union that was china in the american imagination or a nice place to produce toys uh for american children as donald trump said a few days ago uh that the trade war would mean that american kids would have a few more less dolls uh than uh than uh they might otherwise have that was the perception i know it i know these people some of them are my students uh and some have been my colleagues a few have been my teachers they never understood uh the favorite article of the time was the myth of the east asian miracle when you are powerful you want to believe that anyone else's success is a myth uh and that was really the dominant uh meme in the united states in the 1990s and 2000s i can tell you one quick story i published a very good book that no one has ever heard of uh called rising asia for the asian development bank the worst timed publication i ever made uh because it came out in 1997 uh and it came out saying that asia had a very bright future because economic convergence is very powerful we made extrapolations to 2025 that were pretty much on track by the way and it came out a month before the asian financial crisis uh and so i think the asian development bank uh felt that uh this was the worst thing they ever published i don't i think all copies were probably destroyed uh but in any event uh the mood was that asia could never really catch up this was a bubble
uh a uh an exaggeration and so forth but that book quite accurately said look at the
long-term deep trends not at the short-term cyclical phenomena and it
didn't consider uh or study a short-term business cycle it looked at a 25-year
horizon and it got the point right which is that asia would continue to have
rapid growth and i would say asia outpaced what i predicted back in 1997
though it was a very optimistic and accurate assessment but what asia and
especially china did was close the innovation gap as well as the technology
gap so this is probably the most dramatic fact of all which is that it's
not only the cutting edge technologies that are being produced in east asia but
the innovation now is surging in east asia as well but the point i wanted to
make was actually a psychological point not a technological or economic point
the united states is deeply confused about all of this where is the american
century it's supposed to last at least to 2041 if not
2141 and suddenly it's not there so we are in a highly neurotic state
right now very agitated and it's hard to find someone
to sit down and say "calm down it's okay no one's taking away your good life china's not invading you china's not a threat uh it is very successful but you should enjoy that success." uh not uh bemoone that success and so the added factor that we're facing right now is a reaction a very deep and very unsettling reaction to this loss of leadership in
the us i have to say that most of the conflicts that we're experiencing now
whether it is in the middle east or whether it is in ukraine or the tensions
in east asia have the us always as one of the causes of those conflicts but
most of the conflicts result actually in a deep way from the exaggerated us
perception of its ability to dictate terms to others around the world and
this is what the united states did not understand that it could not simply tell russia we do as we want in ukraine or in other neighbors of russia because russia does not want the us military bases on its borders any more than the united states would want russian military bases in the western hemisphere but the us could not understand the reciprocity of that or the golden rule dimension do not do to others what you would not done have done to you and so we did not understand that and many of the other crises have this
characteristic what's dramatic is how ineffective unfortunately the united
states is at facing this right now this is why we have this tariff
eruption which is a complete sideshow not a real event it's a sideshow because
raising tariffs has nothing to do with what the united states needs it's not a
solution for anything and that's why they lasted two days and the stock
market and collapsed and the bond market collapsed and somebody came in to
explain to the president you better stop that and it lasted visav china for about
8 weeks because china said we will match what you're doing and then the united
states backed down from that as well so that's an example of what i would call a
completely dysfunctional reaction to a reality which is that the united states cannot dominate events donald trump thought that the us market is so important so dominant that no country could do anything but bend its knee and uh uh and bend to the us will and this is simply not correct it's not a proper understanding the us market for imports
is only about 13% of world imports now so you could close off the us market
entirely and the rest of the world would figure out how to get along pretty well
indeed uh and that was almost put to the test but the us backed down uh quite
quickly and i don't think that it will come back just to say and let me conclude here some of the reactions are far worse uh we are in what i call america's cultural revolution that's not a good thing uh cultural revolutions do not go well uh they set back china for 20 years in effect and the united states yesterday banished foreign students from harvard university that's not a joke that's insane it is self-destruction at a rate that is absolutely impossible to understand other than in psychological terms this is a backlash a resentment an aggression an arrogance to destroy the core of your prosperity and so one thing i know sunway university welcomes foreign
[Applause] students and it's going to pay off big time so let me just conclude with the following observations whichever direction one looks at the e ecological crisis or the still deprivation of very poor people in the world and you ask the questions systematically like an engineer and i know this room is filled with leading engineers i met several from seammens uh and yi chong is one of the great engineers of of our age uh and uh if you look at this problem from an engineering point of view what i love about
engineers is they say "you give me the specs of what you want i'll tell you how to build it." and you can do that with the problems that we face we can remake the energy system to be a zerocarbon energy system that works that is efficient that accommodates rapid
economic development that cleans the air in fact and has several other co-
benefits alongside and that is completely consistent with the kind of advanced
digital economy that we uh are antic participating and this is what i hope
asean adopts as an aim uh in the uh series of summits this year because asean should have a state-of-the-art 21st century green clean energy system for the future it can be done if you look at any of the other sustainable development goals and ask the question in a very practical engineering way could all children be in school of course they could be in school it's a unbelievable that they're not that actually hundreds of millions are not that's a lack of organization and a financing strategy that's not a technological uh
determinant outcome by any means could everybody have access to health care
well with all of the advances of uh artificial intelligence the ability to
provide health care anywhere at quality has soared just in the last 2 or 3 years
and this is not simply a wish this is actually happening in many places because now you don't have to have the doctors nearby for most things you can do remote uh imaging you can do remote uh diagnostics you can do a tremendous number of things that uh don't require the physical buildout of infrastructure in remote areas that simply were not
possible even two or five much less 10 years ago and so we do not lack for
practical solutions what we lack is the organization and the integration of the knowhow in our universities in our research laboratories in our think tanks with the governments so that this job can get done in an effective manner china by the way to my view is the most successful country in the world in integrating a high level of analytics
and long-term government planning and that's why china just put in its 50,000th kilometer of fast rail for example they built out infrastructure in a way that no other part of the world has done it's why they're adding 300 gawatts of solar power every year to capacity right now and that will probably go up to 500 gawatts in the next year or two the capability of massive transformation is at hand we need the organization the planning and the knowhow what finally will make this work is strong regional integration the
problems cannot be solved at the national level anywhere that's even true
for giants for india they need hydropower coming from the himalayas
from nepal and bhutan uh china needs an interconnection of its grid with
nextdoor mongolia and with southeast asia in fact the united states
absolutely needs canadian hydro power and mexican solar power in order to be
able to decarbonize the energy system and for the 10 asean countries of course
not one reaches a scale that by itself could make this kind of transformation
so this is why the asean summit is so important why malaysia's presidency is
so important because regional groupings are no longer nice things to do pleasant
meetings to have with your neighbors they are essential for success we need
governance at a regional scale and of course the scale that we need in east
asia is at least at the level of the economic
partnership of arp the regional comprehensive economic partnership that brings together china japan korea asean
australia and new zealand i envision that all 15 will be in an integrated
energy system even physical connectivity of australia with indonesia by submarine
cable and onto uh the rest of uh um the
rest of asean by the way zammons which is well represented here had the idea
for europe of what used to be called desertech which is to bring together a whole european grid with north africa
and the middle east europe lost the way seamans pointed the way but the politicians didn't follow uh but that's
the kind of logic that we need for regional solutions
china will play a huge important and positive role for this region and by the
way the united states is not lost forever uh we just need to get through our cultural revolution thank you very
much wonderful
thank you very much professor saxs for um you know the stamina and the passion in in that presentation you know i think
can be clearly felt by everybody next up i'm sure everybody's very eager for the q&a hence to lead our moderated dialogue
and the audience q&a i'd like to invite professor datri dr idris jala prochancellor of chasanway university
and an esteemed national leader in transformation policy and strategy and more recently popular podcaster
dr sri the floor is yours thank you
thank you very much uh it's a real pleasure to be seated here next to two
jeffres and uh i got a lot of questions that have been posted uh perhaps i have
i give the privilege for tantri if you feel like i give the opportunity to ask
a question okay
jeff much like you and those of us concerned about the fate of
humanity i am deeply worried having invested so much time
efforts and resources into setting up institution like the jeffree sax center
here and the asia headquarters of the un scsn here at sam university it looks
like all it takes is the white house to undo everything and turn the world
upside down how do you think we can overcome this real challenge to advance the
sustainability agenda and the hopes of building a brighter future for our
future generation jeff please thank you very much uh
i think the starting point uh again i'll say something negative then i'll say something positive about the united
states also but a starting point is is basic uh the us is 4.1% of the world
population as i've said it's about 14% of the world
gdp it's somewhere around 14% of the world co2
emissions it's important but it's not
decisive if you measure gdp at so-called
international prices or purchasing power prices china is about 30% larger than
the united states today and as i just said the united states has a counterpart
of 86% of the world the united states is not only
diminishing in its relative size and importance but for the moment it's
abandoning uh international responsibility the us has announced that
it's leaving the climate agreement the paris agreement uh the united states is
uh basically leaving many multilateral uh activities also the world health
organization and others because the reaction to the loss of status is i
don't want to play with you if i'm not number one uh i'll be number one some
other way don't tell me what to do uh and so the united states is in a
psychological funk as i explained uh it doesn't want to play by the rules it
doesn't want to play by trade rules it doesn't want to stop its emissions it doesn't uh uh want to uh uh fund the un
and uh many many other things but the rest of the world has not
changed course as a result of this you do not have the rest of the world
standing up and saying about donald trump finally that's what we wanted in
leadership it's not happening what's happening is everybody's scrambling what
do we do uh how should we act uh and so forth
but not how do we follow the united states on the way out of all of these
multilateral objectives that has not happened what is happening at the un
level is a different kind of uh understanding and that is we will not
have unimity on the global agenda right now but they're using a phrase
substantial consensus meaning that most of the world
in fact a vast majority of the world continues to be signed up to the agenda
while one or a few countries are not and
this i think is our reality right now that the first of all the global agenda
is not being upended now having said that it's also not being
achieved and it's not being achieved because most of our time is wasted in
conflict and division right now the leaders even without the united states
are not getting together to talk about climate they're every day talking about
war i
every day virtually uh the uh prime minister of the uk president of france
chancellor of germany and prime minister of poland meet with mr
zalinski for what purpose i have no idea but they don't have day jobs anymore uh
they want to say every day we stand with ukraine okay this is
a a different kind of delusion which is that we don't have to talk about peace
we should just talk about war uh so uh while the us is uh absenting itself uh
europe is in a different kind of frenzy that it's lost its big protector uh
which it has uh the united states will not defend europe in the future but the
truth is russia's not going to invade europe uh and so there's a different
kind of fantasy that's underway which is that russia's about to show up on the doorsteps of uh paris uh as if we were
in 1815 uh rather than uh in
2025 so this is also a waste of time for us there's lots of waste of time the
ukraine war is a profound waste of time there is no reason for it other than
that the united states wanted to expand nato and when russia said no the united
states said we don't care what you say and it finally came to blows that is the
essence of this war and the essence of the war in the middle
east is also absolutely straightforward israel says we want
everything the rest of the world says you get half israel says we want
everything the united states says we'll do what israel says 185 countries say divide the
property it's actually not half if you look at what palestine was at the time
that britain took it over in 1921 israel under its 1967 borders was already
78% but that wasn't good enough for the radicals in israel they want
100% and palestine isn't supposed to have even 22% so we're wasting our time on
something that's absolutely obvious 185 countries say two states and the
united states and israel say no israel dominates and until that's resolved the
war will continue this tragedy and all it takes is one change of vote not
israel's cuz israel has no veto but the united states it just drops the veto on
a palestinian state and peace will actually come to the middle east it's quite amazing uh these are problems that
are a waste of time that can go on for decades and of course they're tragedies
they're disasters but they're not complicated at the core the only thing
that makes them seemingly complicated is all the propaganda that surrounds them but if you step back a little bit and
understand the basics they're not even complicated and so the point
is that the agenda is not disappearing and
the capacity to actually implement the sustainable development
goals or the paris climate agreement or the biodiversity convention is much
stronger today than 5 years ago and incomparably stronger than 20 years ago
go it just doesn't feel that way cuz no one's talking about it right now all of
the discussion is about the war in ukraine or about donald trump's tariffs uh or about banning foreign students
from harvard university or something completely
irrelevant to our world we're wasting our time
my view is though most of the world is not part of that that's the dominance of
the news cycle but not what most countries want and not actually what
most countries are doing again i'll refer to china china is an extremely
serious government it's got plans it's got objectives it's got 10 and 20 year
perspectives and it's building those and it's not subject to
these dayto-day news cycles in the same way
and i think with asean it can be the same and should be the same and i
believe that's true of most parts of the world so i'm truly not pessimistic in
this i i'm frustrated i i'm uh a little shocked at my own
country but i actually have watched it pretty closely for 50
years a character in hemingway's novel
uh famously is asked in uh in in his novel the sun also rises how did you go
bankrupt and the answer is first slowly then quickly uh and uh one could say the
same thing about america's political crisis a long time slowly and now very
quickly but don't it dominates the news cycle but it doesn't dominate the real
attention of the world and shouldn't be allowed to our biggest danger is that
these conflicts get out of hand and here let me say a word in favor of mr
trump he actually does not like war this is the best news
imaginable boy does he like money he he likes big
airplanes he likes all sorts of things he likes golf as we were discussing but
he doesn't like war he is not a wararmonger and he is making peace with
president putin and he's being attacked for it in the united states but he's doing
absolutely the right thing and he's making peace with iran
except that everyone in the united states is yelling at him don't do that
but his instinct is yeah make a deal there might be some money in
it and that is actually good so it's not all negative even in that way this
president does not like war joe biden either liked war or just wasn't there
part of the time and someone else liked war but we had four years of war and
trump's actually trying to wind them down so all of this is to say i know you
asked me the question uh you know are we are we losing the whole agenda the
answer is no we're not losing the agenda and the climate disasters are going to
keep the agenda front and center no matter what but we are
distracted to no end right now and our politics is so weird in the country that
used to count a lot what the world needs to do is learn not to focus on that
little bit of the world uh and to keep the focus on the right things for the
longer term very interesting
thank you jeff the topic jeff is about shifting global order i just want
to raise this point three weeks ago i was in harvard i lecture twice a year
there and for the harvard ministerial leadership program uh one september and
in in april when i was there for a week the only thing that they were talking about
was donald trump exactly and you mentioned the the cultural
revolution that us is going through it just reminds me if you look through
history this was what was happening with the uk during the time of the second
world war churchill was in a denial he didn't believe that the the
british empire was on a decline he still wanted to make britain great again very
similar idea but i think the war really brought them down to reality at that
time i mean the war was ended i mean i i heard one of your comments you said in one of the
podcast 27 million russians died to fight that war and people have forgotten
that yeah they won't acknowledge it people have forgotten the fact that 27 million uh russians died to fight that
war for the rest of us the world and of course america came out there played a
very big part in the victory of the allied forces now the shift that we're
talking about here you talked about shift from a uniolar world to a
multi-polar world but us is not going to lose any significance at all it will
play a very big part but not the way it used to be exactly not at all exactly
now the question for you is that crystal bowling how long do you take you think
the us will come to their senses to accept that this multipolar world is
real and there's no turning back to mega in the way that they were doing it
dominance after the second world war because you said the cultural
revolution is bad and if it drags on for very long it's going to hurt the us even
yeah uh china's cultural revolution lasted 15 years from
1964 essentially to 1979 uh maybe to
1978 i don't think the united states will get out of this uh in
uh in less than 10 years uh because what's happening in the us is is not
donald trump he's a symptom of what's happening he's not the cause of what's
happening he is there in part because of the way that us politics works and maybe
it's worth i'll give you my quick uh 3minut theory of us politics
uh the us made a uh a very fine constitution in
1787 uh it was absolutely ingenious at the time brilliant people did it it's a
little out ofd you wouldn't do it this way now but it was the first written
constitution of its kind and uh they get a lot of credit for it the system turns
out however uh to be uh vulnerable to
several kinds of deep abuses one problem bedeled the united
states from the start and that is race so the united states uh started as a
extremely racist society one of the most racist imaginable uh with a large slave
population the us was the only country in the world that needed a war to end
slavery a civil war other countries did it peacefully but not the united states
the united states needed a brutal war to end slavery it's unique in that way and
so the us remains a very with a very significant
racist uh element and a lot of donald trump's policies are racist policies
actually uh this is part of uh the problem yesterday when he greeted the
president of south africa uh he had a lot of nonsense uh he actually showed
pictures that uh had nothing to do with south africa they were from congo
now but it's interesting but i just want us to reflect on that for one moment it
means that the millure inside the white house is so profoundly racist that the what is talked about
inside is simply vulgar and that is uh
the only reason you could have a president showing pictures he must have shown them to a lot of people they must
have had a good time looking at this but the racism is so strong no one actually
looked at the print underneath and said "well mr president that's not south africa." uh and so that that's the war
in eastern congo uh so this is one problem that's a deep problem that's the
anti-migrant anti-arab anti-muslim many things uh this is anti-china uh the us
has had an anti-china racism from the 1880s the yellow peril this goes back a
long time in american civilization so that's one problem which is pretty deep
the us has had waves where it gets over it and then sometimes because of fear
neurosis crisis it falls back into it so this is uh one of the factors that is
uh there from the start but it's in a bad wave right now we had this in the
1850s we had it in the uh 1880s we had it in the
1920s uh and we have it now big time uh a very racist period in the us by the
way why because the changing demography has put
the white population in a more defensive mindset a panicked mindset
because american society is actually more diverse than ever and in a way less racist than ever
except that there's a backlash among that part of the population that finds
this frightening so that's one part of what's going on a second part of what's
going on is that democracy is easily corrupted
you know it we know it money corrupts and the united states is a
corrupted political system the last political cycle 2024 was a $16 billion
cycle that's not a lot for a $30 trillion economy our government goes for
cheap but 16 billion's also not nothing you have to be a billionaire to play and
so this is a game of billionaires to buy the government and that is what happened
in the us and the supreme court legalized this kind of behavior it said that's free speech elon
musk is just free speech when he says "i'll give a million dollars to this one and i'll challenge anyone that uh that
fights trump i'll put a primary on them and he can pay you know so this is a a a
this is a an economic corruption is a second factor
not not properly understood by our supreme court when it legalized all of
this supreme court struck down all the limits on campaign finance under the
wrong idea that that is free free speech that's not free speech that's legalized
bribery and that's a big problem the third problem in the united states is
that it is an imperium and an imperium behaves by power of course but from 1947
onward it made the key foreign policy process of
the united states secret so everything's confidential and it's only because i've
seen all of this with my own eyes for more than 40 years now it's like the old
cliche how do you know when a politician is lying when he moves his mouth uh and
how do i know when the us government is lying about foreign policy when it says
something it's just non-stop lies but it's secret it's not really secret
everyone knows they're lying but you can't quite prove it because it's secret
it's deniable so the united states played a major role in
overthrowing the ukrainian government in february 2014 i know it i happened to be there a
few days afterwards and one of the people that played a big role bragged about it to me to my face explain "we
gave money to this one this one this one out on the maidan." when i say that i'm attacked as
being a putin apologist but they told me to my face standing on the
maidan but it's deniable because it's secret so this is a third point of that
has really weakened the american political structure uh and so this is
why it's not just trump it's deeper we haven't solved a
single problem in the united states at a major level for more than 40 years we
can't close the budget deficits we can't vote on climate change we can't do we
can't get healthc care universal coverage in the united states the
greatest trauma for 10 years was obamacare you know and there was a huge
fight but obamacare was a half of 1% of gdp and it consumed the nation for 10
years not the nation it consumed the political class for 10 years my point is
we can't solve problems right now so please have some sympathy have some
patience but don't be obsessed about it that's my point okay
okay wonderful predictably there is a lot of
online questions so many people have asked questions i can see them on here
if you can keep your answers a little shorter so we can cover them i i'd
like i'd like to ask whether the ambassador of japan uh hi shikata nori
would like to put his questions yeah please the microphone please
well thank you very much professor sax as a graduate of harvard kennedy school
i wonderful i'm a bit you know uh embarrassed you know that uh there's a
new um policy you know emerging around harvard university and
uh the i i'm really impressed you know by your uh talks and uh one question uh
which uh is lingering uh in my mind is uh uh when
we take a look at global uh international political landscape ape you know there is a strong view that
there is a rise of authoritarian you know states so
democracies globally you know may be undermined and you know such you know
rise of authoritarian states you know may hamper also the promotion of sgs
so my understanding is sgs you know have uh uh you know strong relations with
democracy or human rights although maybe sdgs may not directly talk talk about
freedom of speech but the us constitution us system
allows democratic change of uh the government so i wonder you know you you
also discussed this crossber energy you know power grid and u when the system o
of governments are so different uh would it you know make sense to
depend on for example energy imports from authoritarian states and then we
may suffer from energy embargo you know which may incr you know increase uh your
uh vulnerability so i'm uh very curious you know how you uh kind of uh relate
between those kind of uh political freedom democracy human rights and uh uh
this promotion of uh sdgs and this is uh
to a great extent related to uh how we could uh preserve and promote uh the
inter you know free and open international order based on the rule of great thank you very much how proud i am
as a professor at the kennedy school of government uh to have the ambassador as
as an alumnest uh of the kennedy school and incidentally i i looked up today
when the us government announced yesterday no foreign students at harvard
which is a shockingly self-destructive action of course not by harvard but by
the government uh 59% of the kennedy school is foreign students uh and that's
one of the great prides of great universities uh and uh this is uh uh
this is a terrible thing i hope that a court will rule it illegal which is
quite possible uh and that this doesn't go into effect but this remains to to be
seen i think there are many things i can't answer that in one minute unfortunately
so i am going to take a couple of minutes because i think it's important
um there are no pure types of government
and there are no single simple ideal types of government and therefore the idea that
we are good and they are bad is a very dangerous starting point it's i thought
the biggest mistake of the biden administration he said "the world is in
a battle of democracies versus autocracies." first of all if you start
with the idea that the world is in a battle you make a self-fulfilling prophecy you divide the world second if
you do it that way you end up missing all of your own failures and
obsessing about the limits of the counterpart
in the bible my i i call it my recommendation i say is my
recommendation is jesus christ's foreign policy uh and uh the reason is that uh
in the gospels there is a famous moment when jesus says to the
counterpart why do you point to the moat in the other person's eye when you have
a beam in your own eye and the meaning of the passage in the bible is why are
you complaining about the other clean up your own act and so i think that this is actually
truly from a behavioral and diplomatic and respect point of view how we should
behave in the world anyway we should say we have our failings and by saying that
you help the others to say oh no no no we have our failings and you reduce the
threats and you increase the mutual understanding everyone can say "my god
we're failing together we all have our problems." but instead the approach is
"you're evil and we're good." and this goes overtime in the propaganda of the
government narrative and in the media so putin is pure evil in the american media
china is pure evil in the american media this is to my mind both dangerous and
absurd working with the russian government working with the chinese government this is completely contrary
to reality i've said if i had to choose which government has been most effective
in the last 40 years i would say china actually why because china lifted a
country from poverty to prosperity
and with increased freedom of the population not political freedom but
increased freedom and this is an incredible success story one of the
greatest in history by the way how did china do it they followed japan's
model this is what japan did first in the maji restoration and then it did it
again in the 1950s and with eicada a decade of doubling of income china japan
taught the rest of east asia how to make a rapid economic
growth and so this is not uh by the way not an enemy nor is it something
unfamiliar what what what china's accomplished is very familiar it looks like korea's
accomplishment it looks like japan's accomplishment it looks like many other countries of the region it just did it
at a vast scale which is all the more impressive that it did this so i would
characterize china as a highly successful government governance
structure that is meeting the needs of its population in a quite brilliant way
now china's government will continue to evolve no question they use the word
democracy all the time by the way not as propaganda but as their understanding of
this process and moreover on one side china won't evolve so much because china
has been a centralized administrative state for
2,26 years since 221 bc when emperor uh
chin xiwang di uh first united theqin
empire i know that because lisa wrote a paper about that uh when she was in
seventh grade uh so that's the first time i learned about that but the truth
is china has been a centralized administrative state for more than 2,000
years and so xi jinping looks like an emperor it's not a surprise that is the
cultural tradition that's culture and that's real
but it can be successful or not successful it can be cruel or it can be
benevolent one of the most interesting writings on
politics in western history was actually the first book on political science ever written
2350 years ago by aristotle it's called the politics he invented political
science he invented almost every field of western study actually but he
invented political science in this book and he said there are multiple forms of
government but each form can be good or bad you can have monarchy or you can
have tyranny that's government of the one you can have aristocracy or oligarchy that's government of the few
you can have uh republicanism or you can have mob rule that's government of the
many so you can't just look at the form and say is that good or is that bad the
tradition in china and it's not an empty tradition is that the
emperor must convey confusion ethics to rule that you rule by the ethical
leadership what an interesting nice tradition nothing like this in the western thought in the western thought
you have machavelli but in confucian thought you have the
emperor who leads with virtues so i don't classify governments the same
way and what i do believe is that we need to deal with each other with mutual
respect and a lot of dialogue i started my day actually with
a zoom meeting with members of the diet japanese diet today and with academia in
a meeting that took place i think it was in the diet building i'm not absolutely sure cuz it was on zoom
but what i said there and i'll say again mr ambassador is that japan and china
and korea should increase the diplomacy and not be divided by the united states
in this [Applause]
and i pointed out something if i may with all respect in 2,000 years china never
invaded japan not
once two footnotes in 1274 and
1281 the mongols when they were in control of china tried to invade japan
and the kamicazi wind both times defeated the mongol
fleet but other than that china never invaded japan never even tried to invade
japan japan unfortunately tried to invade china a few times uh the first time
apparently was 1592 when hidoshi
uh the regent of the time went mad and decided to take over
the world starting with an invasion of korea that was a prelude to invading
china he failed as you know um and died in
1598 and then japan invaded china several times
uh starting from 1894 uh up through uh world war ii and
there's a very poignant book uh actually uh by a great colleague of mine and a
teacher ezra vogle whom you must have known ezra vogel was a great scholar of
both china and japan he died a few years ago but his last book was called china
and japan facing history and he said i love both countries but they don't get
along that well so i want to write the history of the relations of the two
countries and the relations are the following as the two as two confucian
civilizations they were at peace for most of two millennia amazing think of
britain and france they were at war for most of two millennia literally every year for
hundreds of years sometimes but china and japan know the monks would come they would
bring back calligraphy they would do all sorts of things but they weren't at war other than the examples that i just
gave and from 1368 until
1839 there was no war between china and japan that's from the beginning of the
ming dynasty to the arrival of the british in the pearl river in the first
opium war no war other than mr hidoshi
uh going mad in a brief uh escapade other than that no war it's sometimes
called the confucian peace because it there was a system but it was basically
a peaceful system of trade some tribute which was symbolic but completely
peaceful then came the british then came
war then came japan's astoundingly successful economic development starting
with the maji restoration which started in 1868 and japan did something completely
brilliant which was in 1871 it sent a mission of leading ministers around the
world cuz you couldn't zoom then and so they went around the world for 18 months called the iraura mission
and they studied who does the best of everything and they came back and they peacefully implemented all of that who
made the best central bank who has the constitution who has the best universities who has the best of each
the best army and so on and they took all the models and adopted them remarkably with one little rebellion the
satsuma rebellion in 1877 other than that peace it was the most successful
transformation and japan industrialized but here's my point upon
industrializing japan attacked china in 1894
and two of the leading diplomats chinese and japanese met each
other and ezra vogel tells this story in the book and the chinese diplomat is
crestfallen why did you attack us we're asian we're being invaded by by the
europeans why did you attack us and the japanese diplomat says "i'm sorry but
we've joined their club." that's literally the quotation and uh
you know japan industrialized uh and so it joined the imperial club for a while
now we're in 2025 it's time for japan and china to
say "we're together on this we don't need american military bases we
don't we don't need to be divided by outsiders
there's no reason there's no threat china's not going to invade japan
period there's just no threat and my view is just a little secret for all of
you if you all get together you absolutely will dominate the world
economy there won't even be a comparison if you put together japanese skill
korean skill chinese skill asean skill oh my god no one could
possibly compete it's all it would be a little nasty for the rest of us but uh
but truly why are you divided anymore so this this to my mind is is the real
uh is is the real suggestion and to put it to a test diplomacy is the key and
diplomacy means talking and i would like japan's foreign
minister to say to wang yi look you're big you're 10 times larger than we are
how can we be safe and i'd like to hear wang yi's answer to that uh because that would be
a very good question to ask and i would like the europeans to go to mr putin and
say "look we feel endangered how can you make us feel better that you're not going to invade
some other country after ukraine?" and i'd like to hear the
answer to that because it's a valid question i'm not worried about it by the
way for a hundred reasons but it's a fair question to ask what's not right is
to stand at the sidelines saying "you're an enemy we build up our military we do
this." without even trying the diplomatic approach diplomacy requires a table and
two chairs the military requires a trillion dollars a year which do you think is the
better deal
thank you i'm just so tempted to put two points to
the ambassador's question the first fact is that china in a very short period of time
they lifted 800 million people out from poverty this is the biggest poverty
eradication in in mankind's history actually if you really look at the
system of government completely misunderstood by the west most of people in western world look at china's model
of government as highly dictatorial but when you really think about it the method in which the the
government people get to the top is a corporate world jeff so you look at zinping he came
right from the bottom had tremendous organizational skills he didn't get
parachute to the top you know he he all the way up there in the corporate model
just to think about it if the world was to say all the corporate world we elect
the ceo and the chairman every 5 years through popular votes we don't get
country automatically as the as the owner and founder but if you lose election you lose it i think if you put
all the corporations using that model of electoral votes i think you'll find most
corporations go bankrupt but the question that's asked of ourselves is how come in the
corporate world that system is solid and robust how come in politics in running a
government we don't use that you got to ask fundamental questions so to me the
chinese model is very much a corporate model you think about it obama when he
became president the single biggest organization he ran was the senate he had only 50 people so he had only
experience in running an organization know 50 people he never really had experience of large scale organization
to run it but siginping prior to him backing over had tremendous
organizational skills to get this going i just my my one step point i just want
to move i want to add one more thing about foreign students at harvard uh in 1985 i had the best crop i ever had
before or since three students from japan one of them
became vice minister of finance and head of the global environment facility uh
the first woman that was vice minister of finance uh naoko ishisan who is now
professor at tokyo university the second became a great professor and minister of
industry uh hazo takanaka uh and a great
esteemed economist and the third became the empress of japan so that was fun wow
okay next i don't take any credit for that i just enjoy it well next question
on my list here is a viv fazerana from a law firm partner is she here in the
crowd yes right there and there yeah
good all right can you stand up please so we
can look at your face thank you sorry
um my name is vivi i'm a law firm partner in jalan nang i know ameno and i
have been a huge fan of professor jeffrey and when i uh saw your video
with uh john matchmire at at all in summit that was a great one for me my
question is based on what we have observed so far asan often finds itself
navigating between the pool china and us my question then is strategic neutrality
still a viable long-term posture or is it time for asean to assert a more
defined uh position in this pool between us and china thank you great thank you
very much look i think uh of course asean countries
uh should seek good relations with uh
all parts of the world so the idea should not be an alliance uh the idea
should be that uh asean which is a very open region in terms of trade should
trade with the united states if the us still wants trade uh with europe with
china and so forth at the same time two other considerations are important the
united states should not try to make asean choose that would
be not only unfair but if asean were forced to choose you would choose your
neighbor china obviously because asean cannot do without good economic
relations with china that's not even imaginable so the united states should
not force or try to force asean into making choices and if the united states
tries to put on secondary sanctions uh that impede asean's economic relations
with china they would have to be resisted actually because neighbors need
to trade neighbors need to have common infrastructure neighbors need to have
transport fiber uh management of riverheds and so forth forth so the
point that i would make is of course the goal should be openness to
all the goal should be good advice to all keep calm don't get into a conflict
we don't want to be in the middle of your conflict there is no reason for a
conflict at all fundamentally and i'll come back to that uh in a moment
um and don't make us choose and at the same time asean should
work closely with china on physical infrastructure and connectivity this is
a neighborhood the belt and road initiative is a very important positive
initiative it says put in fast rail put in renewable energy put in digital
systems that's to everybody's mutual benefit so that is how i would approach this
question i do believe in general again it sounds a little naive
but i believe in general that foreign military bases should be eliminated
period so over time i do believe that the united states
should leave we can't afford it anyway
and president trump said "well japan and korea should pay for our services." and
my view is japan and korea should say "thank you very much we don't need to
pay uh but if you want to leave that is also fine because we'll do it with two
chairs at the table." uh and and uh that to my mind would be
the uh the right approach to this
i've got lots of very very good questions but i find one in particular most exciting and this one is because it
relates to advice that you might give to our prime minister so this one daniel
raman oh sorry it's a bit of a moderator's sorry
an mc's privilege i i guess um if i may and it might be a bit of a controversial
question um it's about taking contradictory positions uh malaysian prime minister has seemingly taken
contradictory position positions in recent times condemning russia's in invasion in 22 yet has visited st
petersburg twice in the last year has urged carving myanmar out of asean yet recently met the honta leaders condemns
the gaza genocide yet still trades with arms supplying countries touts bricks
while affirming the un and the wto now some columns have come out branding this
as opportunism others say it is statesmanship rising beyond how do you
dis how do you uh professor sex decode these apparent contradictions and what
are your thoughts on what prime minister anoa needs to do to make his asean chair a successful one
well he sounds like a politician to
me and by the way an outstanding one uh he's extraordinarily talented and um and
and a very fine leader of malaysia and of asean so i'm i'm very optimistic uh
look all of these uh require uh some subtlety but i will tell you where i
come down on on those uh the wars need to end that's the
practical step uh when it comes to ukraine if you look at the history uh as
i have said this war could have been avoided so
many times had the united states had forbearance had it not pushed nato
enlargement had it not engaged in a coup uh in 2014 uh had it uh honored the
minsk 2 agreement that the un security council adopted had biden negotiated
with putin as i urged the white house to do in december 2021 and ukraine and russia were on the
verge of actually making peace in april 2022 when the united states stopped the
negotiations so the practical point is actually to end the war donald trump's
trying to do that i think all voices including prime minister anoir ibraham's
voice to end the war now through diplomacy diplomacy is the key point
when it comes to the middle east there is one straightforward thing that needs to
be done in my view of course it's a morass this war has gone on for more
than a hundred years actually uh my colleague rashid khaledi a great uh
colleague of mine who's a palestinian professor at columbia university wrote a recent book called
the israel's 100red years war on palestine uh i think that's the title or
close to it uh basically he recounts the fact that what's going on now has been going on for more than a hundred years
what is needed practically speaking is for the united states to stop its veto
of a state of palestine as the 194th un member
state with within an hour palestine could become a state on the recognized
borders of the 4th of june 1967 and if that were to
happen all good things would follow the arab league and the organization of
islamic cooperation have said repeatedly for more than 20 years we normalize
relations with israel when there is the twostate solution
implemented and what israel claims that there's no possibility of peace is a lie
they make the lie because they don't want two states they want one israel to
dominate everything so they make lies to try to justify that that's the essence
of what this is about what were the other contradictions yeah in general i would
not kick countries out of asean i would try to make neighbors work uh you can't
change your neighbors this i tried to tell ukraine also they could do everything they want
but russia's going to remain their neighbor so you better get along with your neighbor and by the way if your
neighbor is a little bit irrassable uh a little bit you feel a little bit
dangerous if i were you i wouldn't go provoke the neighbor tease the neighbor
yell at the neighbor set his garbage can on fire or do other things like that i
would try to be nice to the neighbor that would be my approach so in general
i would try to find solutions in the neighborhood rather than taking actions
of kicking out countries i would try to find solutions
i'm picking another question because this is an advice they're seeking advice from jeff uh to politicians we got a few
sitting politicians in the front row and also at the back row as well so the question is from datu omar sidik of hsbc
this is the ceo by the way
professor saxs it's an honor thank you very much um i'd like to reference some of your early work in bolivia and poland
for example where you managed to advise governments to take very hard decisions
uh to combat entrenched interests um and to sort of make real market reforms
where we it resulted in good outcomes in terms of economic growth and of course uh tackling inflation obviously in the
world today we live in a world of abundance but uh in afsan and definitely in malaysia there's still significant
social inequality uh in terms of access to education access to healthcare so
into your mind what would it take to incentivize big business governments to
be able to allocate resources um in a way that we guarantee uh a fair access
to education fair access to uh healthcare and for them to make the right decisions when it comes to the
environment uh what can malaysia do specifically thank you yeah thank you thank you very much let me let me say uh
two things about uh early advice that i gave in in bolivia which had a
hyperinflation uh that was 24,000% uh between uh mid
uh 2020 uh mid 1984 and 1985 when i was
asked to help uh and poland which faced uh the drama of the uh end of the
communist period and a deep economic crisis first when there is a deep
economic crisis you probably need very decisive measures uh that need to be
done properly and so i recommended very decisive measures second i was a a young
person now i don't know if i'd have the guts to do it now uh because uh it was
um acts of youth in a way uh but they worked thank god otherwise i
wouldn't be sitting here uh at least those two those two worked but most of
the time you don't face a crisis like that a hyperinflation is a very unusual
phenomenon these were particular moments of collapse of states basically and when
states are in collapse you have to do something to rescue the state and and
those are that was the nature of the recommendations that i made the problems
that you uh indicated are very different in character they are long-term
uh societal issues and let me just say a word about education since we're at an
education institution and an excellent one uh as a factual matter uh and again not
uh as a rhetorical flourish or a moral statement as a factual matter the
highest economic return of investment in a society is
education this may sound surprising but it's actually economically true the
finance minister should take special interest in investing in education of
course the problem is it's a little bit long-term you know with all the
technological advance it still takes 20 years for a child to go from
age 5 to age 25 the robots can do it in about 3 hours
by the way uh so all of our robots that will come mainly from china by the way
uh in the next 10 years will get their phds in about 30 minutes and if you want
a different phd it'll be a different 30 minutes so you'll have a walking talking
phd in biochemistry astronomy uh physics
economics finance and and all the rest and also the robot will do the dishes uh
so this is this is a change that we're going to have actually but uh for us
human beings it's really wonderful to have an education it's the greatest gift in life
it's the greatest gift that our parents give us uh actually with in addition to
the love that they give and our survival it's the education because that's the
most important empowerment possible especially in a complicated world
otherwise you can't make sense of any of this uh if uh and today you can't do it
in any place in the world at a minimum of a
secondary completion in with quality secondary school but that's basically
not enough uh for the kind of societies that people want and yet in subseran
africa today only 30% of the kids are finishing secondary school and not at
quality by the so they're not even learning what they should learn that 30% so as a factual
matter i've made calculations that the societal rate of return to investing in
education is 20% compound annual return or even a
little bit higher you can't beat that uh that's better than big tech it's better
than anything else you're going to invest in so the finance minister and
the education ministers for all different levels should really work together to make that
model work if you look at this region who are the top performing
uh countries in the world in education measured on the standardized tests of 15
year olds the uh program of uh international student achievement pisa
of the oecd all of them are east asian countries 1 2 3 4 5 six and this is
something not asean countries by the way other than singapore which is right at
the top this is something and vietnam does extraordinarily well uh ahead of its
income level by a very long distance china doesn't do the whole country but
tenzin uh shanghai and beijing is absolutely at the top hong kong
taiwan singapore uh korea japan all
superb education we should learn from this uh something really good happens in
the education uh it's also deeply cultural the parents are driving the
kids you better perform uh and this is also something quite amazing and
something quite wonderful uh so to my mind without question this is a public
investment that uh should be the priority of course once you achieve
universal education not only through upper secondary but a substantial amount of
university then the science and technology investments follow that and
this is the brilliant step that japan made first going from a cutting edge of
technology to a great innovator and it's the step that china brilliantly mastered
in the last 15 years you look at rankings of research right now china's ahead of the united states across so
many fields right now in terms of published articles of significance and so that required a lot
of public investment as well and so this is what government should be investing
in health care by the way has both a a a core well-being dimension to it we
want to live we want to be healthy uh technology allows that ever more
successfully actually so this is one part but second health is an investment
as well children who are not healthy don't learn uh poor health uh poor
nutrition is leads to a whole lifetime of disability actually and deficiency so
these are very practical considerations in the national income
accounts they're completely misplaced because they're called consumption
spending which is the most absurd thing of all if they were called investment
spending we'd get it at least that those are investments for the future but the
national income accounts put them as consumption spending when the accounts were written in the 1930s and this has
never been fixed since then so this is the point this should not be a hard cell
it doesn't require an emergency it doesn't require some you
know monumental heroism to do it should be the basic core idea that for malaysia to
achieve what it wants to achieve right now the great breakthrough is to the frontiers of science and technology and
that that is an investment process
just looking at the questions there related one uh from d mahinda singh he
was a former adviser to the ministry of education see in the crowd
is he here if he's not i'm going to read the question yeah okay
from your perspective jeff what are the present and possible future indicators
of quality education system both at the basic and higher education
levels very uh excellent question and there are two parts that i would give
for the answer uh one is uh the core
skills uh understanding our world science technology uh education
mathematics the stem skills so the first is getting the basic
skills correct and this is fundamental and this is what pisa measures and so
watch the pisa scores uh countries by the way like pisa scores when they rank
high and when they rank low they say testing is terrible uh it's arbitrary
well my advice is take the testing seriously uh it's good to benchmark
where you are uh it's good to understand where the performance is and what you
can learn from this systematic comprehensive measurement approach by
the way the person that runs uh the testing for the oecd andrea schliker is
an excellent educator very serious and he's done a superb job of making this
testing meaningful but the second part of education is under the sdgs
sdg4 is quality education for all and sdg target
4.7 is a wonderful target which you can look up online which is about the
learning to live in our world and it is about learning the culture of peace
learning respect for other civilizations learning about sustainable
development understanding what's happening in our world and respect for societies around
the world and the idea of living together uh on our planet in a culture
of peace and this is beautifully expressed as an aim it was one of the
favorite objectives of ban kimmoon uh when he was secretary general he called
it global citizenship it's learning the skills of being a global citizen and this is
extremely important as well because this is our real world and we see how hard
this is and when children are brought up to hate and this happens absolutely in
different places in the world and they're told in their education system that some other country is the permanent
enemy or some other civilization is the permanent enemy this is what creates so
much of the harm in the world today so we want our children to grow up to be
good people as well and that means a moral education and that means an
education of respect for others as fundamental or ethics
well the next question is slightly left field relating to the
pope so this is from d ana president of sunway deputy president
group is he here
ana give him the mic apologies so we it's it's an honor
to to be here uh the question is would the selection of an american pope would
provide some kind of counterbalance to the world that we live in and if we if
it's so in what way yes this is a great question and the answer is yes
uh definitely uh americans are uh actually very thrilled uh with the a
pope from uh the south side of chicago uh and they're paying a lot of attention
and that's a wonderful thing because from everything we know about pope leo i 14th he's going to be a wonderful pope
it's a very he's got a very unusual background a caribbean uh background uh
and um of his parentage from new orleans he was born in chicago uh most of his
pastoral work was in peru uh and he's very well trained in a kind of christian
or catholic social thought that i very much admire of thomas aquinus thomas
aquinus was a uh thomas aquinus was a professor at the
university of paris uh in 12 to 1274 off and on uh and um he was a
brilliant uh philosopher and
theologian and he took aristotle's philosophy which
was from a christian point of view a pagan philosophy because it was
pre-christian and he combined it with the the christian uh theology and he
made a great synthesis and sometimes it's called the synthesis of faith and
reason and pope leo i 14th is trained in that tradition he actually studied at st
thomas aquinus university and he chose the name leo i 14th because the
preceding leo was leo i 13th who was the
pope at the end of the 19th century and pope leo i 13th was a brilliant pope who
inaugurated a series of papal teachings or encyclicals starting in
1891 which are called the uh church's modern social teachings and in
1891 the first of these was in latin called raram novarum uh which meant new
things and it was about the industrial age the pope said "we need the church to
keep up with modern times." and that in set a 130year
tradition uh of popes talking about current
issues and pope leo i 14th took the name
i think to be part of that tradition his predecessor pope francis whom i knew
well and loved uh issued wonderful encyclicals in this tradition one in
2015 called lato sea about climate change and quite amazingly
uh the church the catholic church uh brought together the climate scientists
for several meetings to help inform the pope to be at the cutting edge of knowledge about the actual climate
science so this wasn't just a theological reflection or a sunday sermon uh it was based on the best
scientific knowledge and then in 2019 pope francis issued another encyclical
in this tradition called fatelli tuti all brothers and it was about
diplomacy and it actually started with a story a true story of a saint of the
catholic church st francis from where pope francis took his name francis of
aizi who in the year 1219 went from italy to
egypt to meet with the muslim sultan sultan al- kiml al- malik in 1219
at the fifth crusade on the battlefield he tried to convert the sultan he didn't
he didn't succeed but they had a wonderful encounter where they discussed
religion all night and in gratitude the sultan didn't kill st francis uh he led
him peacefully out of the battlefield and uh back to the christian side and
this encounter was recalled exactly 700 years later i'm sorry 800 years later by
pope francis and he dedicated the encyclical this catholic encyclical he
dedicated to the grandm of alahar university of cairo because he
said that's our world christian and muslim together in
peaceful encounter so i mention i mention all of this because this is the
tradition that pope leo i 14th will follow and that's wonderfully
promising i think that is that's about enough that we have for today and i know that today is one of very very
interesting session i consider this you could hear a pin drop it's almost like better than
netflix and i i i would i would all of us i think we all agree that professor
jeffrey sax is a enlightened renaissance man what we've heard today is a real
masterass a real masterass on an observation observation of human history
he believes that we have to look at history from a broad sweep rather than
short cycles if you take a long hard look at it and unwind it by looking at
economics and looking at history we've become lot more wise that we've heard
lots of wisdom today covering all sorts of topics and so we've heard the best
probably the best we've i've seen in in a podcast what we promised to
do sune is going to put many of these and make them
available online so that a lot more people will benefit from the wisdom that we have gotten today and that's what we
promised to do thank you so much once again give uh jeff sax the best of
malaysian applause thank you wonderful
thank you thank you very much dr tri just before we end ladies and gentlemen uh if i may kindly ask you to take your
seats because we just have one very quick closing remarks from our host dr tri sir jeffa um you know as a vote of
thanks and to kind of bring it all together at the end sir the floor is yours thank you very much idris and
professor sax yeah and of course as you know uh idris is our co-chairman for sam
parad and professor sax of course is jeffrey cha honorary jeffrey cha
professor at sam university yeah i i i'm just amazed how you
remember all the events and the dates as i can't even remember the date
of my birthday [Laughter]
well i trust you have found the insights by professor sex valuable and impactful this is
exactly why we are proud of our association with jeff through sam
university here the challenges that stand before us as we know are immense
and formidable and in this context i am a firm believer
in the proposition that the world works best when it works
together ladies and gentlemen from a relatively young age i
adopted my conviction that every individual must have a higher purpose in
life and for me that higher com calling is a commitment to give back to society
in a meaningful and impactful manner and nation building through quality
education and knowledge sharing my success as an entrepreneur allowed me
to establish the jeffrey cha foundation to achieve my philanthropic goals
and to date the foundation is the largest of its kind advancing education in malaysia awarding close to now more than 900 million ringit in scholarship and i'm confident that we will surpass 1 billion ringit by next year wow and in other words the longer i live the more i will give as you all know by end of this decade sunwave will have more than 10 hospital we will have more than 1,000 doctors looking after me so i should be should be able to to reach what i hope to achieve wow the foundation of course has gifted $20 million us to the un sdsn to help the organization carry out its mission in advancing the sustainability agenda globally our support for the un sdsn lies in its name as the un sustainable development solutions network the key word being solutions and today's uh presentation by professor sax is another prime example of our mission to bring cutting edge research and worldclass experty to malaysia and the wider asian region in doing what we are doing i hope the sunway and the jeffrey cha foundation can inspire more organizations in the region to commit themselves to the sustainability agenda this is much aligned to my personal moto which is i aspire to inspire before i expire and jeffrey as uh as i have uh mentioned earlier we are very grateful for the time you share with us even as you travel around the world for the greater good of our of humanity i'm really concerned that the safety and security of you and your family and on behalf of everyone here i sincerely wish you a long and healthy life for all the work you are doing for our world please take care take care of yourself and god bless you thank you once again ladies and gentlemen thank you very much country sir for your powerful inspiring message ladies and gentlemen on behalf of the organizers we thank you for being here today perhaps um i will invite surely all guests for networking and refreshments for members of the media kindly come to the front of our hall now if you may join me in rising and a round of applause to dr sri jala professor jeffrey sax and tantri s for today's session