【上海人谈】\'Shanghai\'

【也谈 “Shanghainese" 】 By: 一语湖边

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原帖： http://web.wenxuecity.com/BBSView.php?SubID=teatime&MsgID=146076
网络搜索主题： 上海，Very randomly:

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· Shanghai is always a topic. Very controversial, Shanghai People sometimes pay less attention to the city they live in, but the interest grows as they get out of the town.

· This is often seen when you travel to the places like Venice in Italy, or to remote town small and quite as “Wu-zhen” - 乌镇 in the southern part of China, you tell immediately whose are coming from outsides from those generation dwellers from  the quietest smiles in their faces looking at the outlanders curiously.

· Quite interesting, “Shanghai” has been a topic of many works. Told in Numerous movies, fictions, and so on. An lee’s movie -“Lust, caution” – 色戒 , could serve no argues another most recent example. Why ？ It is become an interest so peculiar for people from everywhere.

· That the People in Hong Kong or Taiwan have special interests in Shanghai is very obvious. We may feel that from the movies they made in recent years. From earliest “shanghai-bund” 上海滩， to latest “Lust, caution” – 色戒 .

· Truly enough, a big topic, -shanghai started some 200 years ago from a small fishing village to now has a lot to unfold. · Or is there any one specialized in digging into the history or studying the city-development of  a sort? Surely it could cost some time to find out….

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【也谈，上海人：“shanghainese"】 "nish or nese" By: 一语湖边
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也谈， “shanghainese" 我的汉字输入有点问题，原谅我用英语.

上海国际化了,应运而出的是”SHANGHAINESE “ 这个称谓的出现 .
Basically, I did not see anything wrong with that. When we define a word is properly used or not, should we consider situations where the word or the term is used. If we are in the discussion in the sence of the of language .

“在上海时,我听到娇滴滴的上海女子在酒店里对几个东方面孔的男人介绍自己说,”I’M SHANGHAINESE”. 我真的有点儿迷惑. 在感请上, 我没法把’SHANGHAINESE’ 和上海人等同起来.我认为 最自然不过的一句话是上海人对自己的同胞说”我是上海人”，而对老外说 “I’m Chinese． ”

Here is a question: first, in daily conversation, there are many nationalities or people outside with oriental faces: Japanese, Korean, or Honkongnese. suppose you re among them and try to make clear what is your local language or try to give more information of you back ground you would naturally added where you’re from. From this point hardly could we see any thing unsuitable.

“但是鲜有上海人直接了当地对自己的同胞说”我是上海人”, 既使他们说完后也要补充一句, 其实他们父母不是上海本地人. 可是,当无比可爱的上海美眉躲在英文里娇媚而自豪地说I’M SHANGHAINESE”的时候,却好像没有一点需要说明的解释，反而让人觉得是上海人要飞出CHINESE 的圈子, 而直接飞向”SHANGHAINESE”,目标是和 TAIWANESE, HONKONESE, JAPENESE看齐, 而把其他的Chinese 甩在身后. 我不能不承认上海人的优越, 这和所有北京人,NEWYORKER, CHICAGOREN 的优越感是等同的,大城市有着得天独厚的地理环境, 令人咋舌的商业中心, 前卫时尚的流行精品,巨大而风格独特的博物馆,物价昂贵的名街名宅, 更有要人, 巨星, 富商云集, 为城市锦上添花.”

Same as Hongkongnese, Cantonese, Taiwanese, it comes with the languages exposure to the outside world. it is known that China is such huge country with many local languages; there are cases when people in real conversation to be more specific as to let the listeners know where she or he is from instead of just saying "Chinese". It goes along with more exposure of Chinese people and China as a whole. I always say I am “shanghainese” to make clear I am not Cantonese as my westerners friends thought, and to give my languages preference is not Cantonese but Mandarin, or shanghainese as native. Then added I am “Chinese-Canadian” to tell I am Chinese as my nationality.

“但是 , 一个地域再优秀 , 也不可能摆脱它的民族和隶属国 , AFTER ALL, A SHANGHAINESE IS STILL A CHINESE, 我猜是不是有一天 , 当一个 NEWYORKER 到中国旅行 , 对老中们说 “ 我是 纽约人 ”, 而我们又可以分辩出他的纽约口音时 , 那么 SHANGHAINESE 才可以百般骄傲于这个词语的发明 . ”

Secondly, I have heard people in Canada or American saying they are "Torontonian" or 'New Yorker' too, to people who knows little about the area or find hard to tell the difference from their accents. It is quite natural to be a bit specific. It is as simple as to say I am Canadian. but lived in Toronto. So from some people, "Chinese" "Canadian" or "American" is more or less to mean their nationalities only. Surely when they are mixed only with other Westerners and meeting people of other ethics they will mention the country where they belong to as to tell the true nationalities are.

其实 , SHANGHAINESE 这个词本身听起来真的酷极了 . 只是用起来 , 却有那么一点不伦不类 . 因为 , 上海人不用对老中说 , “ 我是 SHANGHAINESE,” , 而对老外应该 说 ”I’M CHINESE”. 我想巴 , 想巴 , 这个词最大的用处 , 是在和殖民地的香港人 , 或是以英语为母语的东南亚同胞交流中可以说 . “I’M SHANGHAINESE”, 既能体现上海和他们相近的西化程度 , 又可不露痕迹地掩饰说 ” 我是上海人 ” 的一点尴尬 , SHANGHAINESE 显然已经厌倦了作为 ” 上海人 ” ，而 TRY TO GET OUT OF IT. 于是 SHANGHAINESE 便在自以为是的在洋涇浜小资们中间流行了起来 .

So, allow me to quote: " 上海人不用对老中说 , “ 我是 SHANGHAINESE,” , 而对老外应该 说 ”I’M CHINESE”. Let’s figure out this way: when you meet some westerners, amidst some 3-4 Chinese, they know you are all 'Chinese" for sure. Then it is better, to say 'Shanghainese" or "Hongkongnese"or "Taiwanese" rather than only "Chinese", which tells your nationality but not clear about the local languages. Unless there is no such word at all, or the city is too small to say, "I am Shu_Zhou_ese" as an example?

However, it is noted the word  “Shanghainese” might be still not acceptable in some dictionaries. And one more thing the "-nese" itself is also within the language discussion too, if we noticed. Here, as some one asked why  "Spanish' is not called 'Spanese' or 'Japanese' but why not "Japanish', or 'Chinese" but not to be called "Chinarian" "Chin-nish" just a example of language curiosity, or whatsoever? It is truly another interesting 'why" or to name it deference of "nish and nese" to dig into?

One more thing: there is huge sub-cultural difference among locations and cities in China, owning to the immobility of Chinese citizens in the past and to the lacking of  the public transportation and communications . But now, the vital thing for Chinese is to go beyond our 

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, or be not too fussy about where we come from. Unless one had personal problems with the people form the varied locations. That is why I guess people are calling for a mindset of more internationally oriented

Post for personal interest, Thursday, March 27, 2008

约翰雷客霄 Burlington, Ca.
Contact: [e-mail] (China) [e-mail]( International )

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附： 高手专题Blog链接:
http://blog.wenxuecity.com/myblog.php?blogID=24470

Reference:

1. 【也谈，上海人： “ Shanghainese" 】 By: 一语湖边 [ 品茶小轩 ] - 一语湖边 _lakeshore(4927 bytes ) (19 reads)2008-03-26 http://web.wenxuecity.com/BBSView.php?SubID=teatime&MsgID=146076

2. 对 “SHANGHAINESE” 和 ” 上海人 ” 的一点困惑 [ 品茶小轩 ] - 风清月白 (1647 bytes ) (143 reads)2008-03-24 http://web.wenxuecity.com/BBSView.php?SubID=teatime&MsgID=145701

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附 02 ： 主题搜索：清单见下：

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[一语湖边_lakeshore]

附02 ： 主题搜索：清单：
• 【也谈，上海人：“Shanghainese"】 By: 一语湖边 [品茶小轩] - 一语湖边_lakeshore(4927 bytes ) (19 reads)2008-03-26
• 哈哈，常听人称“上海小男人”，“上海小女人”又来啦。 [品茶小轩] - 老X(0 bytes ) (4 reads)2008-03-24
• 俺听不懂上海话，来点儿别的吧 [品茶小轩] - 风清月白(0 bytes ) (4 reads)2008-03-24
• 对“SHANGHAINESE”和”上海人”的一点困惑 [品茶小轩] - 风清月白(1647 bytes ) (143 reads)2008-03-24
• 在线 康熙 life show 上海演唱会 [品茶小轩] - 二野(3137 bytes ) (13 reads)2008-03-22
• 上海女人确实不错，男人嘛，太面了点 [品茶小轩] - 润涛阎(0 bytes ) (13 reads)2008-03-20
• 妙配: 山东男娶上海女, 上海男娶东北女 [品茶小轩] - 九头鹰(0 bytes ) (11 reads)2008-03-20
• 我觉得上海男人才够可爱些。嘻嘻。 [品茶小轩] - 碧血千寻(72 bytes ) (26 reads)2008-03-20
• ——谈谈上海的男人和女人 (图) [品茶小轩] - 碧血千寻(4149 bytes ) (424 reads)2008-03-20
• 这是个很奇怪的理论，北京男娶上海女，上海男孩是娶南边姑娘合适 [品茶小轩] - 碧血千寻(0 bytes ) (5 reads)2008-03-20
• 上海男人女人包—————— [品茶小轩] - 碧血千寻(1372 bytes ) (31 reads)2008-03-20
• 咔咔，你跑马观花，奏把上海帅哥、美女看得这么透彻呀 [品茶小轩] - 红漆工(6 bytes ) (8 reads)2008-03-20
• 优雅！文字精美的像上海女人，文风华丽细密的像上海男人 [品茶小轩] - 飘侠(0 bytes ) (4 reads)2008-03-20
• 侬对上海的男人的看法有转变呐。额甚喜甚慰！呵呵呵~~~ [品茶小轩] - Glider(0 bytes ) (3 reads)2008-03-20
• 飘侠看来也很懂得上海GG和MM。 [品茶小轩] - 碧血千寻(0 bytes ) (3 reads)2008-03-20
• 老唱片：良宵 上海音乐学院女子重奏组 刘天华作曲 [品茶小轩] - 聂耳(231 bytes ) (32 reads)2008-03-03
• 也是一次美丽的邂逅，不过我一直不认为上海比北京好：） [品茶小轩] - 安静(30 bytes ) (20 reads)2008-03-04
• 回复：我最爱上海DE ----------- [品茶小轩] - 人在浅水(4 bytes ) (23 reads)2008-02-28
• 我最爱上海DE ----------- [品茶小轩] - 碧血千寻(19 bytes ) (26 reads)2008-02-28
• "上海的中餐馆不错，比我到过的南加，北加，纽约的中餐馆地道"? [品茶小轩] - 小豹(22 bytes ) (30 reads)2008-02-27
• 上海印象 [品茶小轩] - 人在浅水(841 bytes ) (153 reads)2008-02-27
• 上海外滩要拆了！论中国人的革命综合症！ [品茶小轩] - ykhyk(632 bytes ) (80 reads)2008-02-19
• 同感，节日里会回想上海过年的气氛，想家了。。。。。 [品茶小轩] - 朱婷(0 bytes ) (5 reads)2008-02-08
• 旧上海的公寓丽人 [品茶小轩] - 慧慧(5228 bytes ) (734 reads)2007-12-04
• 对旧上海了解颇深嘛。博客里都真人秀啊？你也是名嫒耶！ [品茶小轩] - 庄文雅(0 bytes ) (16 reads)2007-12-05
• 谢谢大家哈，这些历史都是从上海档案信息网上摘取的。 [品茶小轩] - 慧慧(38 bytes ) (37 reads)2007-12-05
• 回复：老上海──上海的广东帮--呵呵-- [品茶小轩] - 江上一郎(30 bytes ) (6 reads)2007-10-23
• 老上海──上海的广东帮 [品茶小轩] - 慧慧(19869 bytes ) (356 reads)2007-10-17
• 上海滩──八十年代的婚礼 [品茶小轩] - 慧慧(8272 bytes ) (407 reads)2007-10-17
• 那些在上海的日子 [品茶小轩] - 小凤凰(4532 bytes ) (243 reads)2007-09-29
• 谈谈上海滩和许文强 [品茶小轩] - 于德利(2512 bytes ) (254 reads)2007-09-27
• 上海海归太太们的聚会 [品茶小轩] - 简单心语(11867 bytes ) (7053 reads)2007-09-10
• 碰巧他们这次聚会时，我在上海。 [品茶小轩] - 简单心语(54 bytes ) (239 reads)2007-09-11
• 回复：上海海归太太们的聚会 [品茶小轩] - STERKING(26 bytes ) (54 reads)2007-09-13
• 不仅仅是上海人，都差不了多少， 半斤八两。 [品茶小轩] - RPV(0 bytes ) (28 reads)2007-09-07
• 回上海后的一些体会 [品茶小轩] - 小凤凰(4689 bytes ) (964 reads)2007-09-06
• 上海股民二三事 [品茶小轩] - 小凤凰(6504 bytes ) (379 reads)2007-09-04
• 上海的空气很清新嘛。比80末期好多了 [品茶小轩] - 庄文雅(0 bytes ) (17 reads)2007-09-04
• 你知道这是上海哪家花园的景色?(图) [品茶小轩] - 小凤凰(3374 bytes ) (262 reads)2007-09-01
• 请你猜猜这是上海的哪里?(图) [品茶小轩] - 小凤凰(4139 bytes ) (287 reads)2007-08-30
• 组群诞生,有空去坐坐,砸砖也欢迎. [品茶小轩] - 百乐门(134 bytes ) (106 reads)2007-07-20
• 上海老太痛批章子怡“给脸不要脸” [品茶小轩] - 握梅闻花(424 bytes ) (218 reads)2007-07-01
• [转帖]上海免费吃喝全功略 [品茶小轩] - 四大恶人(2082 bytes ) (373 reads)2007-06-23
• 看看韩寒怎么说上海的磁悬浮的！(这小子！) [品茶小轩] - 卜人(1635 bytes ) (354 reads)2007-06-05
• 《漫谈上海茶》作者张叶舟，发表于1939年第3期《上海生活》 [品茶小轩] - 聂耳(936 bytes ) (61 reads)2007-04-23
• 阿里在上海的情人节: 和ICE3 (图) [品茶小轩] - 阿里(2584 bytes ) (166 reads)2007-02-21
• 欢迎上海MM。 [品茶小轩] - 公子明(0 bytes ) (5 reads)2007-02-07
• 上海的茶馆 [品茶小轩] - yijibang(7038 bytes ) (179 reads)2007-01-29
• 上海莫干山路五十号 [品茶小轩] - -realblue-(4737 bytes ) (360 reads)2007-01-21
• 有些风花雪月与上海无关 [品茶小轩] - 别样明媚(2980 bytes ) (300 reads)2006-12-19
• 漂亮，如今的上海还有这样安静的地方？？ [品茶小轩] - 天钥桥路(0 bytes ) (15 reads)2006-12-15
• [寻找上海] 虹口的小街 -- 甜爱路 [品茶小轩] - 托尼福(1292 bytes ) (280 reads)2006-12-15
• 【时代的变迁】上海城隍庙（图1） [品茶小轩] - peterpan1668(8175 bytes ) (159 reads)2006-12-14
• 回复：【时代的变迁】上海城隍庙探幽 （图2） [品茶小轩] - 臭美小女子(4075 bytes ) (60 reads)2006-12-11
• 【时代的变迁】上海城隍庙探幽 （图2） [品茶小轩] - peterpan1668(5158 bytes ) (330 reads)2006-12-11
• 记得95-96年加拿大电视台拍的上海孤儿院.引起争论. [品茶小轩] - stockholm(0 bytes ) (23 reads)2006-12-11
• 上海周边古镇的风味小吃（图） [品茶小轩] - peterpan1668(20830 bytes ) (4411 reads)2006-11-30
• 【分享】老上海的风味小吃(续图) [品茶小轩] - peterpan1668(7639 bytes ) (1973 reads)2006-11-29
• 老上海的风味小吃太诱人了。回头照着做两样力所能及的 [品茶小轩] - 简妮真人(0 bytes ) (16 reads)2006-11-29
• 【分享】老上海的风味小吃 [品茶小轩] - peterpan1668(8104 bytes ) (301 reads)2006-11-29
• 回复：[寻找上海] -- 苏州河畔的艺术走廊 [组图] [品茶小轩] - 林贝卡(0 bytes ) (5 reads)2006-11-28
• [寻找上海] -- 苏州河畔的艺术走廊 [组图] [品茶小轩] - 托尼福(2228 bytes ) (241 reads)2006-11-27
• 啊？上海男人真这样？夸张了吧？ [品茶小轩] - EvaLuna(0 bytes ) (16 reads)2006-11-20
• 俺是上海的~ [品茶小轩] - 一品带砖侍卫(0 bytes ) (9 reads)2006-11-20
• （转贴）啊，上海男人！ [品茶小轩] - peterpan1668(8626 bytes ) (234 reads)2006-11-19
• 上海的大白兔奶糖还在吗？甜了俺整个童年！ [品茶小轩] - EvaLuna(0 bytes ) (8 reads)2006-11-12
• 没大没小(ZT普通话)::::呣么规矩(上海话)::::::( [品茶小轩] - 佳乃(33 bytes ) (15 reads)2006-09-30
• 看，钱在说老上海（附照片） (图) [品茶小轩] - 笑笑511(1798 bytes ) (178 reads)2006-09-20
• 很上海的文字,很上海的生活,很上海的情感:):) [品茶小轩] - 佳乃(25 bytes ) (33 reads)2006-09-13
• 范迁"混在上海" zt [品茶小轩] - 混迹北美(8106 bytes ) (59 reads)2006-08-14
• 上海的小吃很精致：） [品茶小轩] - 浪迹天涯2006(0 bytes ) (7 reads)2006-08-01
• 怎么这么多我都没吃过.白在上海呆了.杀回去,照图片去吃 [品茶小轩] - 戈壁滩上的流沙(0 bytes ) (7 reads)2006-08-01
• (上海小吃-多图) “笃笃笃，卖糖粥，三斤胡桃四斤壳”，“金花菜，马 [品茶小轩] - 都是国人(3880 bytes ) (420 reads)2006-08-01
• 俺是被上海滩造就的，说到拼搏，还是插洋对那会儿肯拚 [品茶小轩] - 为吃不怕麻烦(234 bytes ) (35 reads)2006-07-29
• 俺喜欢看关于你自己在上海滩的拼搏胜于爱情故事 [品茶小轩] - 庄文雅(198 bytes ) (21 reads)2006-07-29
• 是吗？我在上海走到街上老是有人叫呢，象彩芬她们：） [品茶小轩] - 为吃不怕麻烦(0 bytes ) (3 reads)2006-07-27
• 大上海，小世界。我感慨得要死：） [品茶小轩] - 为吃不怕麻烦(0 bytes ) (14 reads)2006-07-26
• 人一上百，形形色色。何况是大上海，女孩子有怎么会是 [品茶小轩] - 为吃不怕麻烦(86 bytes ) (49 reads)2006-07-26
• 都说上海姑娘细致丝丝，怎么这个依依如此大大咧咧 [品茶小轩] - 庄文雅(88 bytes ) (44 reads)2006-07-26
• 我在上海的朋友也常用这种方法帮我减肥：））） [品茶小轩] - 为吃不怕麻烦(0 bytes ) (11 reads)2006-07-23
• 上海和上海人都变化不少 [品茶小轩] - 戈壁滩上的流沙(162 bytes ) (44 reads)2006-07-23
• “你不象上海人”--插队时，是好评！ [品茶小轩] - 江上一郎(0 bytes ) (7 reads)2006-07-23
• zt: 从“你不象上海人”谈起 [品茶小轩] - 梦云儿(7288 bytes ) (331 reads)2006-07-22
• 其实上海是最能容纳人城市，上海人是最能平等待人的人 [品茶小轩] - 聂耳(432 bytes ) (60 reads)2006-07-23
• 嘻嘻,我都想去买那天回上海的机票 [品茶小轩] - 霓娜(28 bytes ) (21 reads)2006-07-22
• 连上海的老底子都要挖呀， [品茶小轩] - 庄文雅(24 bytes ) (18 reads)2006-07-23
• 谢谢庄主：）我是坐着公车走进上海的：） [品茶小轩] - 为吃不怕麻烦(0 bytes ) (3 reads)2006-07-23
• 回复：连上海的老底子都要挖呀， [品茶小轩] - 庄文雅(223 bytes ) (6 reads)2006-08-10
• 回复：回复：连上海的老底子都要挖呀， [品茶小轩] - 庄文雅(349 bytes ) (10 reads)2006-08-10
• 上海的确是个淑女培训站，不管湖南辣妹还是四川泼婆 [品茶小轩] - 庄文雅(72 bytes ) (28 reads)2006-07-17
• 都是在上海变的，感谢上海，感谢生活：） [品茶小轩] - 为吃不怕麻烦(0 bytes ) (4 reads)2006-07-17
• 清纯：2者都是阿拉上海姑娘啦 (图) [品茶小轩] - TigerHunter1(186 bytes ) (35 reads)2006-06-28
• 海上花 之煎饼果子“上海造” [品茶小轩] - 为吃不怕麻烦(4421 bytes ) (296 reads)2006-06-17
• 南方人吧 呵呵。上海人？ [品茶小轩] - 笑的跟花儿一样(0 bytes ) (8 reads)2006-06-16
• 你知道吗，百盛可是上海小姑娘的最爱，下次你去必胜客时 [品茶小轩] - 聂耳(102 bytes ) (29 reads)2006-06-10
• 我是急性子，到了上海才学会了悠闲：） [品茶小轩] - 为吃不怕麻烦(0 bytes ) (7 reads)2006-06-10
• 坐着公车看都市 之走进上海 [品茶小轩] - 为吃不怕麻烦(4409 bytes ) (215 reads)2006-06-10
• 2006年上海高考作文题是 （zt) [品茶小轩] - 聂耳(1886 bytes ) (160 reads)2006-06-09
• 我昨天贴的上海民歌喜欢吗? 会唱吗 [品茶小轩] - 海姑娘(81 bytes ) (7 reads)2006-06-07
• 华夏优秀民歌系列40: 上海(苏州)民歌-紫竹调(海姑娘推荐) [品茶小轩] - 海姑娘(2104 bytes ) (93 reads)2006-06-07

• 想去上海看看，：)) [品茶小轩] - 999roses(0 bytes ) (5 reads)2004-01-20
• 笑脸兄猴年吉祥。等着看上海－N(图) [品茶小轩] - 嘿嘿,嘿(0 bytes ) (8 reads)2004-01-21
• 上海外滩。 [品茶小轩] - 没胃口的狗(0 bytes ) (9 reads)2004-01-09
• 梦冉应该是杭州人吧? 难道重划省份把上海归杭州管辖了? [品茶小轩] - 迷惑得叶子都掉光的棉(0 bytes ) (9 reads)2003-12-15
• 上海的冬天 [品茶小轩] - 梦冉(261 bytes ) (265 reads)2003-11-22
• 在上海，我找不到感觉 [品茶小轩] - 吹雪(267 bytes ) (89 reads)2003-11-22
• 从大学毕业到出来的几年大都在上海，让你这么一讲还真想回去看看 [品茶小轩] - 999roses(0 bytes ) (7 reads)2003-11-22
• 上海的治安被黑帮侵浊,不少行业如建筑为其渗透. [品茶小轩] - 不问有言(0 bytes ) (15 reads)2003-11-03
• 上海的治安 [品茶小轩] - 真实的中国(3965 bytes ) (126 reads)2003-11-03
• 活在上海的22种风花雪夜 [品茶小轩] - 侬侬。(3769 bytes ) (121 reads)2003-09-21

约翰雷客霄 Burlington, Ca.
Post for personal interest, and revised on Tuesday, March 25, 2008
Contact: [e-mail] (China) [e-mail] ( International )
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