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Vijay Prashad China will not enter another century of humiliatio

(2025-06-16 12:34:03) 下一个

China “will not enter another century of humiliation”: Vijay Prashad

Can BRICS countries challenge the US? Redi Tlhabi speaks with historian and journalist Vijay Prashad.

Amid escalating global instability and a fractured Western alliance, nations in the Global South are reassessing their geopolitical alignments and economic strategies. The BRICS bloc, which includes Russia, Brazil, India, China, South Africa and other emerging economies, has emerged as a counterweight to the US-dominated financial order.

So, can BRICS countries fulfil its potential as a significant force in a multipolar world? This week on UpFront, Redi Tlhabi speaks with historian and journalist Vijay Prashad.

China “will not enter another century of humiliation”: Vijay Prashad | UpFront

Al Jazeera English  2025年4月18日

Amid escalating global instability and a fractured Western alliance, nations in the Global South are reassessing their geopolitical alignments and economic strategies. The BRICS bloc, which includes Russia, Brazil, India, China, South Africa and other emerging economies, has emerged as a counterweight to the US-dominated financial order.

So, can BRICS countries fulfil its potential as a significant force in a multipolar world?

This week on UpFront, Redi Tlhabi speaks with historian and journalist Vijay Prashad.
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Host 

Vijay Prashad welcome to Upfront Thanks a lot It's great to be with you
Let's talk about the BRICS countries a coalition made up of Brazil Russia India
China and South Africa And now lately expanded with new members joining Egypt Ethiopia Iran the UAE and uh recently Indonesia You know different countries have different reasons for wanting to be a part of the bricks but the fundamental reason is to create a counter response a counter measure to western dominance and also uh to create other alternatives to the international monetary fund and the world bank What's your verdict Have they achieved that mission 

Vijay Prashad

Well the first thing to remember is that the bricks project is actually quite modest It's not uh to change the world That that was never the project You you have to understand that in 2007 when the financial crisis took place with the subprime mortgages exploding in the United States it looked to many countries big countries like Brazil India China South Africa had looked to them that the western markets that they had come to rely upon the United States in particular but also European markets were not going to forever be able to absorb the goods and services produced in these large locomotives of the south And for that reason these countries began to turn to each other to think of a kind of south south trading world It has since developed further and has perhaps taken on a slight political air where these countries have begun to think about um organizing institutions outside western control But principally if we just take the first objective which was to increase trade across the global south that has indeed taken place and and taken place pretty successfully 

Host

So in recent years a growing number of countries have been making moves to dd dollararize that is to decrease their dependency on the US dollar BRICS countries such as Russia and uh India have also increased their transactions settling their transactions in their local currencies trading rupees for rubles Now given the instability that is being caused by Donald Trump's tariffs are we likely to see more countries in the bricks in the global south taking similar moves of exploring the possibility of trading in different currencies other than the dollar 

Vijay Prashad

Well some of this trade has been taking place in what are known as local currencies In other words they are trading uh goods and services in their own currencies That's been happening since 2007208 Secondly the United States for political reasons has been sanctioning more and more countries It has increased sanctions over this past decade 900% Uh enormous increase of sanctions That's the second way in which a decoupling has been happening Okay Then the third issue is the US government has been putting increasing pressure on China through its tariffs policy sanctions policy and so on China therefore has also pivoted away from the US market seeing that sections of um its important exports for instance in telecommunications not being allowed into Europe not being allowed into the United States So China has also pivoted away from US controlled institutions As you see Russia China sanctioned countries pivot away Countries like India which rely on western markets for the export of services begin to look for other places English-speaking countries where they can export their services You're beginning to see another world already born You don't need to actually build this world politically It's already being built largely It's a kind of owned goal by the United States Trump may be angry about ddollarization Well he should be He should be angry about it But a large part of ddollarization is not happening politically by countries like India and so on It's happening because the US continues to use the dollar as a political instrument and is sending countries off searching for other ways to trade with each other In that sense the United States is actually the great driver of ddollarization not the BRICS countries

Host

And yet sometimes you see some insights into this from the United States itself In 2023 the current Secretary of State Marco Rubio even admitted "We won't have to talk about sanctions in 5 years because there will be so many countries transacting in currencies other than the dollar that we won't have the ability to sanction them." How much leverage does Washington uh stand to lose here 

Vijay Prashad

Well by the way that's one of my favorite um television interviews where Marco Rubio then a senator effectively says that this is horrible and and the United States by um sanctioning countries is losing the power to sanction them I think it's a very interesting statement that he makes and it's quite correct He makes my point actually better than than I'm making my point He he makes it bluntly directly and from a position of power But I don't want to exaggerate this because the United States remains one of the major countries in the world It has the largest military force um under NATO It is able to dominate most of the world and it is the only country right now that is willing to forgo capital controls open its assets within its own territory for buying and selling and therefore being able to have a global currency No other currency is right now prepared no other country is prepared to open up their currency to become essentially global fiat money The Chinese are not willing to let go of capital controls open up their financial markets The Russians can't do it They are sanctioned by too many people in the west in particular The euro is not strong enough I mean no country really has the ability to take over from the dollar It is going to remain in a position of dominance until we come up with a new strategy you know perhaps some sort of bricks currency or a or a or a United Nations currency some kind of But we are a long way off from there are we not We are a long way off from there But you've already told us that the world is realigning and that the US is actually through these actions these aggressive actions forcing this realignment But let's just zone in on China for a moment It has become one of the world's leading creditors surpassing
the World Bank and the IMF But then it has also been criticized for offering
debt diplomacy What others are calling debt traps The debt that developing
countries owe to China is running into
like 1.1 trillion US dollars So China's
actions themselves are they pure or are
they continuing those patterns of dominance and imperialism that impoverish poorer nations Well it's interesting because this is a problem in
our countries You know when we go to any
financial institution whether it's the
International Monetary Fund or it's the
People's Bank of China our capacity has
to improve to negotiate for better deals
We have to come there with better
development projects I mean look at the
case of of countries like the Democratic
Republic of Congo and Zambia Um these
two countries can be right now making an
African electric car Africa does not
need to import cars from anywhere It has
all the raw materials and most of the
expertise to make an African car Why
isn't that car being made right now It's
because our governments are simply not
putting uh their heads together coming
up with good agreements making deals
with countries and demanding a
technology transfer to make the African
car or the Latin American aircraft Why
should a Latin American airline buy
aircraft from Boeing and Airbus Why not
create our own um you know aircraft
These are things we can do This is our
problem This is not something we need to
lay the blame at the People's Bank of
China or even Kenya But but Kenya let's
just pause for a moment I mean we saw
those protests in Kenya people taking to
the streets as uh R tried uh to raise uh
uh revenue by increasing taxes One of
the problems there was not just the
state of living It was the previous
loans that were afforded to Kenya by
China And that's why Kenya started
saying "Okay fine We're no longer
looking east or west we're looking ahead
They had to go back to the IMF and find
a dual model of financing this The the
rail network that Kenya built was costly
and it was built by Chinese money So
there are elements of truth in that Well
but first we have to think about are we
controlling our own raw materials I mean
look at you you gave the example of
Kenya Kenya is principally an exporter
of tea coffee and cut flowers Who owns
the cut flour industry in Kenya Who owns
the land in the Kenyan highlands where
the tea and coffee is grown Let's talk
about the fact that when Joo Kenyata
comes to power in Kenya they do not
expropriate the colonial landholders the
planters of the highlands It's still
multinational corporations that dominate
the tea and coffee of Kenya Why is Kenya
giving up its wealth to multinational corporations and then looking for loans
to build a railway Kenya should be selling its cut flowers its tea and coffee processed uh into the world market earning enough revenue and then building its trains Why do we need to be in debt We are in debt because we don't control our resources And in the case of Kenya as you explained the land question should be foremost on people's minds Why are they out protesting um the increase of of of of fees on them They should be out protesting how the land is still held colonially Okay let's go back to this geopolitical tension between China and the United States Trump has placed is it now 145% uh tariff on imports from China and who knows what it will be when we wake up tomorrow morning Given this do you think Trump's tariffs against China are a part of a larger political mission or agenda or just a trade war a trade tension It's very interesting because for the first time in about 50 years the United States has genuinely changed its foreign policy orientation Until now from the 1990s at least the United States has had an idealist foreign policy the belief that you can just bomb a country and democracy will sprout up This is what they attempted in Iraq Bomb Iraq and on the the bombing fields you'll have a Jeffersonian democracy Now the Trump administration has returned the United States to a more realistic foreign policy a right-wing realism uh you can call it They understand that China is a threat to the United States but not a military threat It's an existential threat to the US tech companies Chinese
technology firms whether it's Huawei or BYD which makes electric cars are far
better and more efficient and able to produce products cheaper for the world market than US firms Um Huawei phones are a lot better than Apple phones BYD cars a lot better than Tesla This is a serious challenge to American capitalism And rather than deal with this in a way that capitalists should which is invest to make better cars make them more efficiently the United States is using tariffs to put pressure on China and then using its military to intimidate China It's not going to work China has said they will not enter another century of humiliation None of the countries of the global south are ready to be humiliated again Trump is trying something I just don't think it's going to work VJ Prashad a pleasure talking to you on Upfront Thank you for joining us Thanks a lot It's great to be with you

中国“不会再经历百年屈辱”:维贾伊·普拉沙德

金砖国家能否挑战美国?雷迪·特拉比采访历史学家兼记者维贾伊·普拉沙德。

在全球动荡加剧、西方联盟破裂的背景下,全球南方国家正在重新评估其地缘政治格局和经济战略。金砖国家集团由俄罗斯、巴西、印度、中国、南非和其他新兴经济体组成,已成为美国主导的金融秩序的制衡力量。

那么,金砖国家能否充分发挥其在多极世界中成为一支重要力量的潜力?本周,雷迪·特拉比在《UpFront》节目中采访了历史学家兼记者维贾伊·普拉沙德。

中国“不会再经历百年屈辱”:维贾伊·普拉沙德 | UpFront

半岛电视台英语频道 2025年4月18日

在全球动荡加剧、西方联盟破裂的背景下,全球南方国家正在重新评估其地缘政治格局和经济战略。金砖国家集团由俄罗斯、巴西、印度、中国、南非和其他新兴经济体组成,已成为美国主导的金融秩序的制衡力量。

那么,金砖国家能否在多极世界中发挥其重要力量的潜力?

本周,在UpFront节目中,雷迪·特拉比与历史学家兼记者维贾伊·普拉沙德进行了访谈。
<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>

主持人

Vijay Prashad,欢迎来到 Upfront!非常感谢!很高兴和您在一起。我们来谈谈金砖国家联盟吧。这个联盟由巴西、俄罗斯、印度、中国和南非组成。最近,埃及、埃塞俄比亚、伊朗、阿联酋以及最近的印度尼西亚等新成员也加入了进来。您知道,不同的国家
想要加入金砖国家联盟的理由各不相同,但根本原因在于
为了应对西方的主导地位,

为了创造国际货币基金组织和世界银行以外的替代方案。您如何评价?他们实现了这个使命吗?

Vijay Prashad

首先要记住的是,金砖国家计划的规模其实很小。它并非旨在改变世界。这从来都不是金砖国家计划。您必须明白,2007年金融危机爆发,美国次贷危机爆发,许多国家都认为像巴西、印度、中国和南非这样的大国,认为它们所依赖的西方市场,尤其是美国和欧洲市场,不可能永远吸收这些“南方”大型经济体生产的商品和服务。因此,这些国家开始相互合作,构想一种“南南贸易世界”。这种模式自此进一步发展,或许还略带政治色彩,这些国家开始考虑在西方控制之外组织机构。但主要来说,如果我们只考虑第一个目标,即增加全球南方国家的贸易,这确实已经实现,而且相当成功。

主持人

近年来,越来越多的国家开始采取行动,实现美元化,也就是减少对美元的依赖。俄罗斯和印度等金砖国家也增加了以本国货币结算的交易,用卢比兑换卢布。鉴于唐纳德·特朗普的关税政策造成的不稳定,我们是否会看到更多“南南”国家采取类似的举措,探索新的贸易模式?使用美元以外的其他货币进行交易的可能性

Vijay Prashad

其中一些交易是以所谓的本币进行的。换句话说,他们用自己的货币交易商品和服务。这种情况自2007年以来一直存在。其次,出于政治原因,美国一直在制裁越来越多的国家。过去十年,美国加大了制裁力度,制裁力度增加了900%。这是脱钩发生的第二种方式。好的,第三个问题是,美国政府一直在通过关税政策、制裁政策等对中国施加越来越大的压力。因此,中国也已经远离了美国市场。例如,其重要的出口产品,例如电信产品,不允许进入欧洲,也不允许进入美国。因此,中国也已经远离了美国控制的机构。正如你所看到的,俄罗斯和中国等受制裁国家正在转向其他国家。像印度这样依赖西方市场出口服务的国家,开始寻找其他可以出口服务的英语国家。你开始看到另一个世界已经诞生。你不需要真正从政治角度来建设这个世界,它在很大程度上已经在建设中,这是美国拥有的一种目标,特朗普可能对美元化感到愤怒,他应该感到愤怒

关于这一点,但很大一部分美元化并非由印度等国家出于政治目的而发生。这是因为美国继续将美元作为政治工具,并迫使各国寻找其他贸易方式。从这个意义上讲,美国才是美元化的主要推动者,而不是金砖国家。

主持人

然而,有时你会看到美国自身对此有一些见解。2023年,现任国务卿马可·卢比奥甚至承认:“五年后我们将不再需要谈论制裁,因为将有如此多的国家使用美元以外的货币进行交易,我们将无力对它们进行制裁。”华盛顿会失去多少筹码?

维贾伊·普拉沙德

顺便说一下,这是我最喜欢的电视采访之一,马尔科·卢比奥, 然后一位参议员实际上说这很糟糕,美国通过制裁其他国家正在失去制裁它们的权力。我认为他的言论很有意思,而且非常正确。他表达我的观点比我表达得更好。他直截了当地站在强势立场上表达。但我不想夸大其词,因为美国仍然是世界上的主要国家之一。它在北约的领导下拥有最强大的军事力量。它能够主宰世界大部分地区,而且它是目前唯一一个愿意放弃资本管制,开放其境内资产进行买卖的国家,因此能够拥有一种全球货币。目前没有其他货币愿意开放其货币,使其成为全球法定货币。中国不愿意放弃资本管制,开放其金融体系。市场 俄罗斯人做不到 尤其受到西方太多人的制裁 欧元不够强势 我的意思是,没有哪个国家真正有能力取代美元 它会一直保持主导地位,直到我们想出新的战略,也许是某种实体货币,或者某种 或者某种联合国货币 但我们离那个目标还很远,不是吗 我们离那个目标还很远 但你已经告诉我们,世界正在重新调整,而美国实际上正在通过这些行动,这些激进的行动来推动这种重新调整 但让我们暂时把注意力集中在中国身上 它已经成为世界主要债权国之一,超过了世界银行和国际货币基金组织 但随后,它也因提供债务外交而受到批评 其他人称之为债务陷阱 发展中国家欠中国的债务已达到1.1万亿美元 那么,中国的行动本身是纯粹的,还是 在延续其主导模式以及使贫穷国家陷入贫困的帝国主义。这很有趣,因为这是我们国家面临的一个问题。你知道,当我们去任何金融机构,无论是国际货币基金组织还是中国人民银行,我们都必须提高谈判能力,争取更好的交易。我们必须带着更好的发展项目去那里。我的意思是,看看刚果民主共和国和赞比亚等国家的例子。这两个国家现在就可以制造非洲电动汽车。非洲不需要从任何地方进口汽车。它拥有制造非洲汽车所需的所有原材料和大部分专业知识。为什么现在没有制造这种汽车?是因为我们的政府根本没有齐心协力,没有与各国达成良好的协议,也没有要求转让技术来制造非洲汽车或拉丁美洲飞机。为什么拉丁美洲航空公司应该从波音和空客购买飞机?为什么不自己制造呢?飞机 这些都是我们可以做的
这是我们的问题
我们不需要把责任归咎于中国人民银行,甚至肯尼亚。但是,让我们先暂停一下,肯尼亚,我的意思是,我们看到了
肯尼亚的抗议活动,人们走上街头,因为呃,R 试图通过增加税收来增加呃,呃,收入。那里的问题之一
不仅仅是生活状况,还有之前中国提供给肯尼亚的
贷款。这就是为什么肯尼亚开始说:“好吧,我们不再
东顾西顾,我们要向前看。他们不得不回到国际货币基金组织,寻找
一个双重融资模式。肯尼亚建造的铁路网成本高昂,
而且是由中国出资建造的。所以,
这话有一定道理。好吧,
但首先我们必须考虑,我们是否
控制着自己的原材料。我的意思是,
看看你举的肯尼亚的例子。肯尼亚主要出口茶叶、咖啡和鲜花。谁拥有
肯尼亚的面粉加工产业
谁拥有
肯尼亚高地种植茶叶和咖啡的土地
让我们来谈谈
当朱·肯雅塔
在肯尼亚掌权时他们没有
剥夺殖民地土地所有者,也没有
高地种植园主。跨国公司仍然主宰着
肯尼亚的茶叶和咖啡。为什么肯尼亚
要把财富拱手让给跨国公司,然后又寻求贷款
来修建铁路?肯尼亚应该把鲜花、加工过的茶叶和咖啡卖到世界市场,赚取足够的收入,然后再建造火车。我们为什么需要负债?我们负债是因为我们没有控制自己的资源。就肯尼亚而言,正如你所解释的,土地问题应该是人们最关心的问题。为什么他们要抗议增加土地使用费?他们应该抗议土地仍然被殖民者占有。好吧,让我们回到中美之间的地缘政治紧张局势。特朗普现在对从中国进口的产品征收了145%的关税,谁知道明天早上我们醒来时会是多少呢?鉴于此,你认为特朗普对中国征收的关税是更大政治使命或议程的一部分,还是仅仅是贸易战?战争、贸易紧张局势。这很有意思,因为大约50年来,美国首次真正改变了其外交政策取向。至少从20世纪90年代至今,美国一直奉行理想主义的外交政策,相信只要轰炸一个国家,民主就会萌芽。他们在伊拉克就是这么做的。轰炸伊拉克,在轰炸场上,你会看到
杰斐逊式的民主。现在,特朗普政府让美国回归了
更现实的外交政策,你可以称之为右翼现实主义。他们明白,中国对美国构成威胁,但不是
军事威胁。这对美国科技公司构成了生存威胁。中国的科技公司,无论是华为还是生产电动汽车的比亚迪,都比美国公司
更优秀、更高效,能够为全球市场生产更便宜的产品。嗯,华为手机比苹果手机好得多。比亚迪汽车比特斯拉好得多。这对美国资本主义是一个严峻的挑战。与其用资本家应该用的方式来应对这个问题,也就是投资制造更好的汽车。让他们更高效地
美国正在利用关税向中国施压,
然后又用军事手段恐吓中国。这行不通。中国已经
表示,他们不会再经历一个世纪的屈辱。全球南方国家都没有准备好再次被羞辱。特朗普正在尝试一些我认为不会奏效的事情。VJ Prashad,很高兴在 Upfront 节目中与您交谈。感谢您加入我们。非常感谢。很高兴与您交谈。

 

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