Professor Kerry Brown

Professor Kerry Brown 西方对中国虚伪

Professor Kerry Brown | This House Believes the West is Hypocritical Towards China 

 Cambridge Union

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIvyqifJ8iA

克里·布朗教授是伦敦国王学院中国研究教授兼刘氏中国研究所所长。他曾担任查塔姆研究所高级研究员兼亚洲项目负责人。1998年至2005年，他在英国外交和联邦事务部工作，并曾担任英国驻华大使馆一等秘书。
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我当时确实满怀热情地相信，中国的发展轨迹必须
包含某种形式的政治参与决策，而且我确实认为中国必须经历政治转型。上世纪90年代中期，我住在内蒙古。我记得那年在从北京到广州的火车上，我和一位北京大学的学生就中国收回香港时必须遵守所有条约义务的问题进行了激烈的争论。我们进行了一番激烈的争论。她说，嗯，我们还是谈点别的吧。嗯，我记得那些争论。我记得在21世纪初，中国经历了历史上最伟大的GDP爆炸式增长之一，在四年内翻了两番，十年内经济翻了两番，真是不可思议。我记得我为世界民主运动做过一个项目，大约在北京奥运会期间，我四处奔波。我考察了CI不同地方的家庭委员会，我考察了欧盟在云南开展的民主支持项目，我记得在北京附近考察过一些农村民主项目，那里有3000，嗯，300万官员，是通过公开选举任命的，只有一个党派或非党派人士可以参选，但我认为，随着中产阶级的崛起和人均GDP的增长，你必须进行改革，才能建立像西方那样的制度，所以我有过这样的经历，我记得我和民主活动人士打过交道，看到他们遭受的苦难，我记得我见过一些蒙古的活动人士，他们被严重殴打，我的一个朋友，哈达在那里开了一家书店，为了促进多元化和开放，他被关了15年，你知道，我知道人们遭受了多少苦难我
绝对不是在贬低或轻视他们非凡的勇气，以及那些仍在为此奋斗的中国人民。我对他们只有钦佩。然而，问题不在于此，而在于我们，正如前面几位发言者所说，在于我们做得如何。实际上，我认为有四件事
会让任何中国官员或其他人士对西方人在过去30年里所说的任何话都产生怀疑。首先，他们
应该真正意识到
西方在1991年苏联解体时对俄罗斯所说的
绝对可怕的后果。我们
不怀好意，不怀好意，强加给他们
经济和政治模式，
导致了我们今天看到的
俄罗斯的发展水平
下降，男性死亡率下降，这对经济来说是一场灾难，它对中国产生了巨大的影响。这也是为什么共产主义在中国仍然是一个热门话题
最重要的原因。中国
是因为他们目睹了苏联发生的事情，并了解到比共产主义更糟糕的事情是什么，呃，比共产主义更糟糕的事情是什么，他们
看到了第二个是2001年的恐怖袭击，当时我在北京，在大使馆任职，记得从一开始，我们就
告诉中国它必须
遵守世贸组织的义务，它必须
你知道，就像小布什一直在说的
中国是我们的人权问题，这是一个巨大的价值观问题，但当美国受到攻击时，它突然变成了我们的盟友，
我们把几个呃，西方武装组织，新疆组织，东突厥斯坦伊斯兰运动和其他组织列入了
恐怖分子名单，我的意思是，我们几乎在一夜之间就改变了主意。第三个是2008年的大经济危机，大约在那个时候，
我为世界民主运动工作，
在中国四处奔走，
寻找潜在的模式，我
还记得，我们不仅在西方传播了
非常糟糕的政治改革理念，这些理念如果中国听了我们的建议，将会是一场灾难，
而且我们也是糟糕的资本主义者，我的意思是，如果中国采取了
一些导致2008年金融危机的
资本主义措施，
美国其他国家也采取了这些措施，
那么，它
很可能就会被抛在一边。
实际的结果是，它变得非常怀疑。我认为，如果没有2008年的经济大危机，我们就不会
有辛平和他的政治风格。
但最终，过去10年里，美国、欧洲和其他地方发生的一系列奇怪而诡异的事件，
表明我们的政治体系
没有中国真正可以学习的东西。我知道这很有用。
我不认为中国不想
改革，我确信它确实想
改革，但我们没有特别好的模式。我不认为我们
有任何好的模式了。这就是为什么我是一个
改革派伪君子。所以我认为
有两件事
与我们处于这种境地的深层原因真正相关。第一点是，
之前有人提到过，
特别是关于英国，
我们想要什么？我刚刚写了一本关于英国与中国关系的历史，
从1600年到现在，
发生了巨大的逆转。
在所有好书店都有。
大学出版社的广告里有一段关于英国在
何时最强大，
何时最强大，
那是在19世纪后期，当时帝国海事
海关在罗伯特·赫德（Robert Hart）的领导下运行，
霍尔斯特曼（Uholsterman）
中国财政
体系的三分之一在
之下。当时的清政府
英国拥有绝对的霸权
我们拥有世界上最大的领事体系
我们在中国修建铁路
我们开采矿产
我们拥有大约70%的外国投资
我们在打字叛乱中
通过与清朝军队并肩作战
拯救了清朝
我们拥有绝对的主导地位
然而我们从未
谈论过价值观
在我们权力巅峰时期
我们不希望中国成为一个像我们一样的强国
我们想要的是我们的政策
非常非常简单，我们希望中国不要
强大到对我们构成威胁
我们也不希望它
虚弱到崩溃
我们受自身利益驱使，而这一直是
我们关系的历史基础
我们不希望的
我们想要的
我们对华政策往往是我们
不希望中国变成的样子
而不是我们
希望中国变成的样子
当我们进入21世纪时，我们有一种这是一个非常明显的战略选择，而我认为我们是伪君子的原因是，我们必须非常诚实地说明，为什么我们对中国的现状和运作方式有异议。我们行事不诚实，因为我们从2??0世纪90年代开始就参与其中，通过加入世界贸易组织等等，都抱着一种赌注，认为我们最终会得到一个看起来有点像我们的中国，但问题在于，它过于强大，不会崩溃，但愿上帝保佑，它不会崩溃。但问题是，我们从未想到，中国会在一个截然不同的模式下取得成功，而这正是我们今天所看到的。这个令人难以置信的中国异类，对我们来说是个问题，不是因为它不是资本主义，而是因为它是一个比我们更好的资本主义，它是一个实践着达伦·波尔（Darren Boer）——一位非常优秀的斯科特·美国人——张成（Shing Jang）所说的东西的资本主义。地球资本主义，一种没有任何劳工权利的资本主义，一种没有任何限制的资本主义，它比我们更好。我们对中国的问题是，它正在做我们自认为比我们更擅长的事情。这就是为什么我认为我们是伪君子。最终，我们所有人，无论我们来自哪里，都只是因为，我们在这所大学，在这样的环境中，都是启蒙运动的子孙。伟大的启蒙价值观。如果你看看启蒙运动，欧洲人重视的关于中国的理念，被三位伟大的人物——莱因茨·蒙特斯库和……嗯……沃隆特尔——很好地捕捉到了。300年前，他们非常非常清楚地捕捉到了为什么今天我们……仍然像启蒙运动的……欧洲人或启蒙文化中的人们一样，无论我们身处哪个政治领域，对中国的态度都如此矛盾。一方面，他们捕捉到了对中国的一种伟大的理想主义。沃隆特尔在百科全书中写道，中国是一个……比英国更好的制度。你知道，比起欧洲人，这是一种理想的、令人困惑的精英统治制度，呃，蒙特斯库写道，这是一种专制的、邪恶的制度，除了带来可怕的后果和生命之外，它什么也做不了。今晚，弃权者有点像这种制度，所以我认为这抓住了我们看待中国时的本质。今天的中国，我们看到一个实体，它从根本上与我们对抗，不是因为所有这些可怕的人权问题，是的，我完全理解我们的政治精英，而是因为中国正在做一件我们从未想过它会做的事情，我们不希望它做，我们也无法容忍它做，而它正在今天的制度下取得成功。

Professor Kerry Brown | This House Believes the West is Hypocritical Towards China 

 Cambridge Union

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIvyqifJ8iA

Professor Kerry Brown is Professor of Chinese Studies and director of the Lau China Institute at King’s College London. He has previously worked as Senior Fellow and Head of the Asia Programme at Chatham House. From 1998-2005, he worked at the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office, including as First Secretary at the British Embassy in Beijing.
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I really did passionately believe that the whole trajectory in China would have to
embrace some kind of political participation in decision-m and I did think that China would have to go through a political transition and then I lived in Inner Mongolia in the mid 1990s and I remember having a massive argument on a train trip from Beijing to Guanghou that year uh with a student from Beijing University about how uh you know China in taking back Hong Kong had to observe all of the treaty obligations and we kind of had this massive round she just said um let's just talk about something else um so I do remember you know kind of those debates i remember in the 2000s when China underwent one of the great kind of explosions of GDP growth of all time it quadrupled its economy in four uh for in a decade i mean incredible and I remember doing a project for the world
movement for democracy where I went around around about the time of the
Beijing Olympics uh and looked at different places in ci household
committees i looked at uh democracy supporting projects the European Union
was running I think in Yunan i remember looking uh near Beijing at some of the
projects there uh for village democracy and 3,000 um 3 million officials had
been appointed through these uh open
elections only one party could stand or
non-party members but I kind of thought
with a rising middle class with per
capita GDP rising you would have to have
uh reforms that would bring about
systems like in the west so I had that
experience and I remember uh dealing
with democracy activists and seeing as
the person said earlier how they
suffered i remember looking at some of
the activists in in Mongolia who'd been
banged up very badly one of my friends
Hada who ran a bookshop there kind of
promoting pluralism and openness uh was
put in jail for 15 years i mean you know
I know how people have suffered so I'm
not at all denigrating and belittling
their incredible courage and the people
that still struggle for this in China i
have nothing but admiration for them
however this is not about that it's
about us as the previous speakers have
said it's about how did we do and
actually there are four things that I
think would have made any Chinese
official or otherwise really skeptical
of anything Westerners said over the
last 30 years the first is that they
would have been really aware of the
absolutely awful outcomes of what the
West told Russia when the USSR collapsed
in 1991 uh we went with bad faith we
went with bad faith and foisted on them
uh economic and a political model which
has resulted with the things we see
today uh developmental levels in Russia
fell male mortality fell it was a
calamity for the economy it had a huge
impact in China the greatest reason why
communism is still a live issue in China
is because of what they saw happened in
the USSR and learning that what's the
worst thing uh what is the worst thing
than communism what comes after it they
saw that the second is the 2001
terrorist attacks i was in Beijing
serving at the embassy at the time now
remember from one minute we went from
telling China about how it had to
observe the WTO obligations and it had
to you know kind of George Bush the
younger was going on all the time about
how um you know China was our human
rights it was massive massive issues of
values but the moment America was
attacked it suddenly became our ally and
we put I think a couple of uh wea groups
Shinjang groups etim and others on the
terrorist list i mean we changed almost
overnight the third was the great
economic crisis in 2008 about the time
that I was working for the world
movement democracy in China going around
and looking at potential models and I
remember how the profound impact of not
only were we purveyors in the west of
really terrible uh political reform
ideas which have been would have been a
catastrophe if China had listened to us
but we were also lousy capitalists i
mean if China had adopted some of the
capitalist measures that led to 2008
that American others had it would have
probably fallen by the wayside the
actual result was that it became deeply
skeptical i don't think we would have
sinping and his style of politics if we
hadn't had the 2008 great economic
crisis but the final thing is the
absolute calvade of kind of strange and
weird events over the last 10 years in
America and Europe and elsewhere that
have shown that our political systems do
not have things that China can really
learn from and know would be functional
i don't think it is that China doesn't
want to reform i'm sure it does want to
reform but we don't have particularly
good models i don't believe that we have
any good models anymore that's why I'm a
reformed hypocrite so I think that there
are two things that I would say really
relevant to the deeper reason why we're
in this situation the first is and
someone alluded to it to to it earlier
and particularly about Britain what do
we want i've just uh written a history
of Britain's relations with China since
1600 to the present day great reversal
out in all good bookshops yo University
Press advert over that has uh you know
kind of a section on when Britain was
most powerful when was Britain most
powerful in China it was in the late
19th century when the imperial maritimes
custom ran under Robert Hart a uh
olsterman a third of the Chinese fiscal
system under theQing government at that
time Britain had absolute supremacy we
had the world's largest consular system
in China we were building railways we
were building mines we had something
like 70% of all foreign investment in
China we had literally saved theQing in
the typing rebellion uh by fighting on
the side of the imperial troops we had
absolute primacy we did not however ever
talk about values we did not at the peak
of our power want China to be a power
like us what we wanted our policy was
very very simple we wanted China not to
be so strong that it would be a threat
to us and we didn't want it to be so
weak that it would fall apart we were
driven by self-interest that has been
the historic basis of our relationship
what we don't what we want what we our
policy towards China is often what we
don't want China to be it's not what we
do want China to be when we come to the
21st century we have a kind of really
really obvious strategic choice and the
reason why I think that we are
hypocrites is because we need to be very
honest about why we have an issue with
China being the way it is and
functioning the way it is we acted in
bad faith because we engaged from the
1990s onwards and through the World
Trade Organization entry and all those
things hedging on a bet that we would
end up with a China that looked a bit
like us but was um not a problem by
being too strong and wouldn't Lord
forbid fall
apart but the problem is what we didn't
ever expect is a China that would
succeed under a very different model and
that's what's happened we have today
this incredible anomaly of a China which
is a problem to us not because it isn't
a capitalist the problem is that it is a
capitalist that's better than us it's a
capitalist that practices what Darren
Boer a very good Scott American Shing
Jang calls terra capitalism a capitalism
without any labor rights a capitalism
without any restraints it is a better
capitalist than us our problem with
China is that it is doing the things
that we thought we were good at better
than us that is why I think that we are
hypocrites and very finally all of us
here wherever we're from just because
we're at this university in this
environment we are children of the
enlightenment the great enlightenment
values if you look at the enlightenment
Europeans values the kind of ideas about
China were really well captured by three
great figures Linets Montescu and um um
Volonteer and they capture very very
well 300 years ago why today we are
still so conflicted as enlightenment
Europeans or people in the enlightenment
culture wherever we are in the political
west towards China
they captured on the one hand a great
idealism towards China volater wrote in
the encyclopedia about how China was a
better system than Britain you know than
Europeans it was a kind of ideal
confusion meritocratic system uh
Montescu wrote about how it was despotic
an evil system that couldn't really you
know kind of deliver anything except
terrible outcomes and livets was the
abstainer bit like the kind of system
tonight and so this kind of I think
captures who we are when we look at
China today we kind of see an entity
which antagonizes us fundamentally not
because of all of these terrible human
rights issues yeah I completely
recognize those for our political elite
it is because China is doing the one
thing that we never thought it would do
and we didn't want it to do and we can't
stomach it doing and that is succeeding
under the system it has today