新加坡总统 谈自由

An investigative interview: Singapore 50 years after independence - 45th St. Gallen Symposium

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpwPciW74b8&ab_channel=

 

have access to a whole world of information on the Internet it's an extremely open Society there's no doubt about it we are
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unconventional in requiring in our laws that we have the right of reply when
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foreign Publications publish something that we feel is false or misleading we just have the right of reply and when
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Publications as you know very well uh refuse to publish a reply we impose
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restrictions on them that affect the advertising revenues unconventional you might not agree with it but the larger
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point is this I think we all need some humility
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we all need some humility on the ways that best Advance a
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liberal order to take Lord Griffith point this morning a liberal order economically socially and politically we
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all need some Liberty some some humility as to how we achieve that not just for
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today but for tomorrow how do you sustain it how do you best sustain it the most thoughtful observers in the
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west of the view that you need some buffers you need some margins of safety
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and you need some compromises on some Liberties in order to achieve others and the a free me the freest
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possible media is not the only Liberty we aspire to I I do think it's a good idea by the way it appeals to my ideals
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but it's not the only Liberty you aspire to you do aspire to a liberty of being
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able to walk the streets freely particularly you're a woman or a child at any time of the night you aspire to
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the liberty or living in a city that's not defined by its most disorderly elements you aspire to the liberty of
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having an opportunity for an education and a job regardless of your race or your social background and you aspire to
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Liberty or practicing your own religion without fear of bigotry or discrimination those are very important
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Liberties in many societies and they're lacking in many societies well I I I think we're getting into a very
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interesting area and Singapore to me is the sort of um body politic which we in
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the west struggle to Define in a way because maybe we have a slightly sort of simplistic binary approach to this we
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either want you know we look at free societies like I suppose mine or Western
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European or the US models we would say free societies and then we would look at a a China for example and we'd say a a
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not free Society you know they have capitalism of of A Sort but they certainly don't have democracy and we'd
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say not free and dysfunctional politically you sit in neither Camp
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unfor as far as we're concerned we can't really pigeon hole you but here's a thought for you maybe your system is
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coming to A A Crossroads or a turning point because the digital age is changing things somewhat you know the
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information flows and the the top- down approach that your Society has taken perhaps don't fit so easily into a
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digital age and I just wonder you know when there are theories about the relationship between uh political
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economy and Innovation and long-term sustainable economic Success Through
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Innovation whether Singapore is going to have to change and whether the authoritarian model if you don't mind me
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using that word is going to have to be reviewed and fundamentally adapted what
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do you think so uh lean you would never have
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expected that Singapore would remain what it is today forever uh I don't
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expect and I don't think any of my colleagues in government expect it's going to remain this way forever it has to
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evolve we start with the cards we are dealt with we start with history shapes
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choices and the history I described briefly ear earlier on did shape choices it shaped social social choices it
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shaped political choices but we must never be trapped by our history we have to keep evolving and it is it is a
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worthy ideal to Aspire for a system where individuals
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are well educated are good judges for thems of the information they read on
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the Internet or on the media are able to make their own minds up I think that's a very that's a worthy idea to to to
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Aspire towards but how do we do it in a way that's self- sustaining and to to
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think that you simply if all forces are let loose whether it's the media or anything else that you're able to
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achieve the Liberties that matter most to people safety freedom of of of religious belief
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the freedom to Aspire in life and Achieve what you want through hard work those are very important Liberties but
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simplistically put is there going to be room for more individualism in Singapore
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yes it's in the future so if you look at Singapore today compared to not even 50 years ago 10 years ago it's a vastly
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different place it's a vastly different place singaporeans are educated
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discerned skeptical and critical people they know what's what there's no doubt about it
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and Singapore continues to evolve it's a function of course of the fact that we've had some success in education it's
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a function of the fact that as you say it's a digital world it's an open world so there's no doubt about it but let's
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not think that we are all moving teleologically towards that destination that you now see in the United States or
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UK we'll all have to evolve and we all need some humility as to so how we
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progress democracy but will Singapore always be the kind of society where the government says ultimately you can't
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live there because the quota for your particular ethnic grouping has already been reached you've got to go and live there is it going to be that kind of
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society forever that's uh imponderable I think it'll be naive to think that uh
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you can lift it and people will be will automatically gravitate towards uh
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diverse uh neighborhoods and you won't in fact get the reverse because if you look at the most advanced democracies
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that's exactly what's happened you have you have in the United States you have in France you have in
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Germany you have even in the United Kingdom in the United Kingdom half the Muslim population lives in your bottom
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10% of neighborhoods did it happen because of some random
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chance or does it happen because that's the natural workings of society we have to address these facts honestly and
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realize realiz that look human beings aren't perfect everyone has biases discomforts a sense of liking or
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distrust for each other and there is a role of government and elected representatives to unify people and it
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doesn't happen through speeches it means you need mechanisms you need instruments
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they mustn't be too constraining on individual choice but you do need to constrain something and do you end up a
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better Society or don't you that's the test not whether the government is right do you end up a society that people feel
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more comfortable in that's the real test I'm I'm it's easy to talk about Singapore but quite frankly this is a
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challenge we all face oh absolutely I mean listen I I know full well that the
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sorts of issues that come out of of making uh an ethnically diverse Nation
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work are extremely important to a whole bunch of Nations far beyond Singapore not at least my own but but it seems to
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me you are now facing some of the problem that are other nations have have faced for quite a long time let's talk a
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couple of specifics one immigration big issue in Singapore today in fact one could argue it's one of
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those issues which is is prompting a new kind of very active passionate debate
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where opposition is actually you know coming out onto the streets using the internet in ways that we haven't seen before because your government looks at
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the demographics of Singapore looks at the need to keep growth going and thinks you know our own people aren't having
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many babies is we are going to have to manage continued immigration into the country to the tune of I think by 2030
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the plan was to turn a population of what 5.3 million into 6.9 million not a
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plan but there were it wasn't a plan it was moted anyway and it drew an awful lot of opposition from native
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singaporeans uh so what are you going to do you know you've got you've got this problem you need the numbers but
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immigration like in so many nations around the world is now a hot and difficult political issue what are you
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going to do so it's a it's a challenge that uh many countries face and small countries face it more than others
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Switzerland faces it in a very um uh pointed way another small country that
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um uh not only needs people for the sake of numbers but its companies need talent
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and specialized skills to compete internationally but we are a society we are not just uh s Gallen uh or sto guard
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or San Diego we are a country we are a nation and that means it has to be a
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nation that people feel is their own it's got to have social mores and uh a
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tone that people feel is Singaporean but with an openness that allows us to take
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advantage of the skills and expertise and track records in networks or
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foreign foreign foreign individuals so staying open but remaining Singaporean
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at the core is what we have to achieve s a matter of balance what are you
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actually bring in this new uh what 30% of your population by 2030 or not so we
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we already at onethird of our Workforce that is foreign and we hope to keep it there as long as we can without letting
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it rise indefinitely and that's uh something we Implement through Labor Market rules we've got levies we've got
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Kar and so on uh but you you can't have a free-for all you can if you are one
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city in a larger country but we are a country by ourselves and you need a balance and integrating foreign in our
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society is just as important as thinking about the numbers just as important as
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thinking about the qu quantity uh you've got to integrate people as well as you can and Singapore have to feel that yes
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this is my country but I'm proud to be working in a worldclass team now another challenge you face uh
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is on the size of government you know you've talked already with me about the
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uh Investments made in housing for example uh and that's going to increase I know it's a huge part part of