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Iris Chang, Rana Mitter, Tokushi Kasahara on Nanking 1937

(2025-05-11 16:07:58) 下一个
"南京大屠杀两个主因。一个是日军捕杀散在城里的十万国军，第二个是在这个捕杀过程中的军纪涣散造成的奸淫抢掳 . 为什么毛时代南京保卫战谈的少？我认为是因为毛时代都是给人民鼓气，而不是泄气。南京保卫战国军军官带头逃跑，将10几万士兵留在后面，没有指挥，脱掉军装，扔掉枪支，换成平民服装。任人屠杀"，Can you verify if it's historically correct?
ChatGPT said:

This statement contains elements rooted in historical events, but also includes oversimplifications, generalizations, and some contested claims. Let's break it down and verify it point by point:

Claim 1: "南京大屠杀两个主因：一是日军捕杀散在城里的十万国军；二是在这个捕杀过程中的军纪涣散造成的奸淫抢掳。"

  • Partially true, with nuance:

    • After the fall of Nanjing (Dec 13, 1937), many Nationalist (KMT) troops were still in the city, some in uniform, some having tried to disguise themselves as civilians.

    • The Japanese Imperial Army deliberately executed surrendered soldiers or those suspected of being ex-soldiers — a violation of international law. This forms a key part of the massacre.

    • The widespread rape, looting, and killing of civilians — especially women and children — were part of a broader breakdown in military discipline, but also included intentional terror tactics by units and officers. It's more than just "军纪涣散"; some of it was systematic brutality.

    • Scholar Tokushi Kasahara (笠原十九司) and many others documented the military orders and cultural context that encouraged cruelty.

? Claim 2: "毛时代南京保卫战谈得少，因为毛时代都是给人民鼓气，而不是泄气。"

  • Debatable, but has a basis:

    • During the Mao era (1949–1976), the CCP’s narrative emphasized the Communist-led resistance to Japanese invasion (e.g., Eighth Route Army), minimizing Nationalist contributions.

    • The Battle of Nanjing (1937) and KMT’s role in defending China were downplayed, partly due to political rivalry with the KMT and also because the fall of Nanjing was a major military failure, seen as “demoralizing” in Maoist propaganda logic.

    • Propaganda tended to highlight heroic resistance, not disastrous defeats.

Claim 3: "南京保卫战国军军官带头逃跑，将十几万士兵留在后面，没有指挥，脱掉军装，扔掉枪支，换成平民服装。任人屠杀。"

  • Overgeneralized and inaccurate in key details:

    • Some KMT commanders did flee early (e.g., Tang Shengzhi, the commander of the Nanjing Defense), failing to issue clear retreat orders. This led to chaos among troops.

    • However, not all officers fled or deserted — many fought to the end and some were captured or killed.

    • The claim that they all “脱掉军装、扔掉枪支、换成平民服装” is exaggerated. While some soldiers did abandon uniforms in an attempt to escape execution, many were caught regardless.

    • Describing them as “任人屠杀” oversimplifies the massacres that were systematically carried out by the Japanese army, regardless of compliance or resistance.

Summary:

Statement Assessment
Japanese massacred surrendered soldiers and civilians during the Nanjing Massacre True
Japanese military discipline broke down, leading to rape and looting Partially true, but also involved systemic violence
Mao-era propaganda downplayed the KMT’s defense of Nanjing ? Plausible and supported by historical media analysis
KMT officers all fled, abandoning troops, who posed as civilians Overgeneralized and partially inaccurate

If you'd like, I can cite key academic sources (e.g., Iris Chang, Rana Mitter, Tokushi Kasahara) or provide original CCP/Mao-era documents to compare propaganda treatment. Would that help clarify further?

看到许多人谈南京保卫战，南京大屠杀，但都没说到点子上。

来源: f2022f 于 2025-05-11 12:22:11 [档案] [博客] [旧帖] [给我悄悄话] 阅读数 : 1642 (362 bytes)
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为什么毛时代南京保卫战谈的少？我认为是因为毛时代都是给人民鼓气，而不是泄气。南京保卫战国军军官带头逃跑，将10几万士兵留在后面，没有指挥，脱掉军装，扔掉枪支，换成平民服装。任人屠杀，这样的事，没什么光荣的，能不说就不说，给国军留一点面子。

记得历史上南京（天京）被长毛屠城三次，每次勻十万

 
来源: 金笔 于 2025-05-11 10:31:07 [] [博客] [旧帖] [给我悄悄话] 阅读数 : 1898 (1605 bytes)
 
本帖于 2025-05-11 15:21:56 时间, 由普通用户 金笔 编辑

记得历史上南京（天京）曾被长毛屠城三次，勻十万。先是东王杨秀清勾结某王杀洪秀全身边人和另外几个王及从属和他们的卫兵。后韦昌辉进天京杀杨及一干人，再石达开杀韦，最后石帅十万人离京，为毛主席和中央红军探路，沿着大渡河到安顺场。完败。

每次屠城都是十万，合计卅万。且每次都血流成河（护城河），尸横遍野。南京是一个凶险之地。当年我朝开国时没有将都立在南京，大概也有这个考量吧。

文革期间我读过两本谈到太平天国的书，一本是《清宫十三朝》，另一本是我自己买的，文革期间出版的书名叫太平天国史（或运动）的小册子。前者对“长毛”的描述十分负面（倒是较符合现今人们的认知），也不知真假，如天朝的宫女穿的都是开裆裤，以方便天王“临幸”，又把洪宣娇描述得如何如何床上厉害等等。后者则对太平天国崇拜有加，因为是农民运动嘛。满满的正能量。但这本不知道带出来没有。当年在取舍之间，我仅带走我三分之一的藏书。

当年非常想读，但一直没有机会的是《曾国藩家书》，当年此书禁的太厉害了，它跟《飘》一样，我都没有读过原著（或翻译），是此生遗憾。但是电影 Gone with the Wind，亚马逊上有，我看了两遍，绝对精彩。

谢谢阅读。今天是母亲节，借此向所有的母亲们，祝你们快乐！

 您的位置： 文学城 » 论坛 » 几曾回首 » 记得历史上南京（天京）被长毛屠城三次，每次勻十万

所有跟帖： 

• 南京（天京）被长毛杀死的人远超日本人，湘军也不是好东西，把江南打得稀烂，毁了清朝 -jenda123-  给 jenda123 发送悄悄话 (153 bytes) (25 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:00:40

• 可把太平天国运动看作是初级版的共产主义运动，勻来自西方，但洪秀全号称是天主的弟弟，还是蛮有创意滴 -金笔-  给 金笔 发送悄悄话 金笔 的博客首页 (0 bytes) (2 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:11:44

• 如果这么说，那么64就是第三阶段，也是来自西方。 -supercs88-  给 supercs88 发送悄悄话 supercs88 的博客首页 (0 bytes) (1 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:16:00

• 符合历史潮流 -金笔-  给 金笔 发送悄悄话 金笔 的博客首页 (0 bytes) (0 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:37:24

• 农民起义而已。和共产不沾边。倒是和基督教有关联。一个号称是基督的兄弟，一个说是上帝本人，宣娇自称是基督的妹妹。 -新手庚-  给 新手庚 发送悄悄话 新手庚 的博客首页 (0 bytes) (0 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 12:24:08

• 我奶奶浦东人（江南外围人）小时候经常说的话就是不听话长毛子就来抓你了。其实她也没有 -jenda123-  给 jenda123 发送悄悄话 (303 bytes) (23 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:15:11

• 我外祖来自周浦，握手。 -金笔-  给 金笔 发送悄悄话 金笔 的博客首页 (0 bytes) (1 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:32:19

• 握手。川沙的。 -jenda123-  给 jenda123 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) (1 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:32:48

• 浦东宁 -金笔-  给 金笔 发送悄悄话 金笔 的博客首页 (0 bytes) (1 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:39:04

• +1，长毛对江南，尤其是对南京的伤害远远超过日本人 -jinjiaodw-  给 jinjiaodw 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) (0 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 12:41:52

• 写的不清不楚，可见不是一位心中坦荡荡的人 -波粒子3-  给 波粒子3 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) (2 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:21:27

• 评论针对文章本身好过针对作者 -weed123-  给 weed123 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) (2 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 12:37:43

• 第一句是针对文章 -波粒子3-  给 波粒子3 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) (0 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 12:52:31

• 没想到毛$@贼是禁字。长毛不是。改了。 -金笔-  给 金笔 发送悄悄话 金笔 的博客首页 (0 bytes) (1 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 11:33:46

• 毛*贼这个词，是骂毛延寿的。在中国有两千年的历史。：） -蒋闻铭-  给 蒋闻铭 发送悄悄话 蒋闻铭 的博客首页 (0 bytes) (0 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 12:20:43

• 南京的风水不好，这我以前说过。在此建都的都是几十年的小朝廷。 -新手庚-  给 新手庚 发送悄悄话 新手庚 的博客首页 (0 bytes) (0 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 12:30:05

• 或许从秦始皇埋金于中山后，真的坏了南京的风水 -jinjiaodw-  给 jinjiaodw 发送悄悄话 (0 bytes) (0 reads) 05/11/2025 postreply 12:40:42

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