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我没有想到美国的教育理念，其要求学生的自我学习和创造能力，竟贯穿到方方面面，乃至到我6岁儿子的钢琴。前几天看到一个妈妈网上比较不同的钢琴老师，提到了一个老师示范另一个不示范，然后很多妈妈都表示自己的老师如何示范，将此列为了一个好老师的条件。这个自然是一个中文网站。我看后立刻着急上火，因为我们老师从不示范啊！ 但是我好像又记得有种说法是不示范，要让学生自己读谱。打电话咨询了所有认识的琴童妈，自然我认识的琴童妈也都是中国人，自然她们的中国老师也都示范，而她们也都认为示范好。唯一一个不示范的，是台湾人在美国学的钢琴, 因此被琴童妈炒了鱿鱼。只有我一人找的是美国老师。我又重看了这个老师的简历：私立音乐学校毕业，有Master学位，主攻钢琴教学和乐理。11年教学经验。按说不应该犯这样的错啊？到底该不该示范啊？最后决定问pianoworld. 下面就是我的post和别的钢琴老师的回答。他们真热心啊！半小时内就好多贴。还有人给我private message。看下来，就发现认为不该示范的都是美国老师。精英教育啊，精英教育。只是不知道我儿会是精英，还是那个被放弃的。
Do teachers play the new songs for students?
Hi All,My son, 6 year-old and turning 7, has just started to learn piano 3 months before with his teacher, who uses Faber's "Piano Adventure" books. We have been happy with the teacher until I talked with other piano parents and found out that some teachers always played new songs to the students before assigning homework, while our teacher never played. Even when he made a mistake, his teacher only pointed it out and wouldn't play the whole song for him.My son, and all of kids, learns better by examples. Sometimes he is not accurate with the rhythm, and after he listens to my play, he plays much better. And I am not even a piano player. I want to ask the teacher to play for him in the class, but not sure whether playing is a common practice in teaching. What are the reasons behind play and not play? Please enlighten me. Thank you a lot!
Gary D. Loc: South Florida
For the students who are quick, I do not play music for them in the first lesson. I ask them to read the music, work on it for one week. In fact, I try to slip in two new easy pages at the end of each lesson. I mark them as "new" and tell them not to worry if they can't work them out, but tell them it would be cool if they do. (I use my own materials.)But when a student asks me to play something, I NEVER refuse. In addition, no matter what I am teaching, I will demonstrate what I am teaching through playing.I would talk to the teacher before making assumptions. Be sure that the teacher never plays the music. You will not know this for sure unless you are part the lessons.
_________________________Piano Teacher
lechuan
NOT playing the song first helps to ensure that the student is learning to read the notes and rhythm. Hearing the song allows the student to "bypass" the reading to some extent, and may take them longer to develop this skill (and/or slow down their reading at later levels).But if you are concerned, discuss it with your piano teacher to find out his reasons.
John v.d.Brook Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
--What are the reasons behind play and not play? Please enlighten me. Thank you a lot!--
You asked, in the topic's title, Do teachers play the new songs for students? As my students will attest, I generally sing them songs, and play pieces for them. There is a difference. I encourage teachers to learn it and help their students learn the difference as well. In fairness, I do a lot of singing in general, because I'm trying to help them understand the concept of phrasing. But we're discussing more advanced students here.
On to your main issue - to play or not to play pieces for students. When working with upper elementary to early advanced students, I often will play through a small group of pieces for them to select their next study piece from. For elementary students who are firmly rooted in foundation study, I do not. As Gary pointed out, learning to read without first hearing is a necessary part of their training. Once the piece is in hand, we often play together, or I will play the piece several ways to help the student with ear training.
My advice is not to pester your teacher about this. In fact, it might be better to ask why your friend's teachers feel the need to play for elementary students when they should be teaching reading skills as part of developing a solid foundation.
_________________________"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
chrisbell Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
A teacher that does not play the piece for the pupil
--NOT playing the song first helps to ensure that the student is learning to read the notes and rhythm. Hearing the song allows the student to "bypass" the reading to some extent, and may take them longer to develop this skill (and/or slow down their reading at later levels).--
That is so wrong.
_________________________I never play anything the same way once.
-----------------------------------------Style is a function of our limitations, more so than a function of our skills.
lechuan
--A teacher that does not play the piece for the pupil That is so wrong.--
In what way is it so wrong?
chrisbell Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
The idea that hearing a song allows a student to bypass the reading.That's only valid if the student is working on his/her's Prima Vista skill.
This notion that it will take a student longer and maybe even be detrimental in their development goes against all current research into learning an instrument. Research shows that the opposite is much more beneficial for the student.
keystring Loc: Canada
--This notion that it will take a student longer and maybe even be detrimental in their development goes against all current research into learning an instrument. Research shows that the opposite is much more beneficial for the student.--
What research is that?
ten left thumbs Loc: Scotland
Tina, does the book have a CD? I remember the 'My First' of that series do. CD can be great for giving them a impression of what to aim for.
_________________________www.justfingers.co.ukwww.babysinging.co.uk
keystring Loc: Canada
Doesn't it make sense to talk to the teacher? If he has a reason for not having the child hear the music first, then this might undermine what he is trying to achieve.
ezpiano.org Loc: Irvine, CA
I usually play for students when……
1. When introducing a new pieces
2. When students make mistake and I show them how the correct one should sound like
I will not play for the students when……
1. When students is working on Sight-Reading
2. When I notice that student is lazy to use his eyes to look at the music notes on the page and use his ears to find the notes (I can tell when they are playing wrong notes, they usually will play one higher or lower until they “hear” the notes right instead of using their eyes on the page.)
In short, if I know a student is heavily using his ears to find the correct notes, and my purpose for him is to be a good music reader, then I will not play for him.
_________________________http://ezpiano.orgPiano lessons in Irvine, CA
ymapazagain Loc: Hobart, Australia
I will sometimes play a piece for a student if it is introducing a new concept (such as the first time they encounter triplets or the pedal etc.) so that the student can follow the music and see how the new concept works within context. But if there's nothing new within the piece then I'll have the student work it out without hearing it as I believe that this is an important skill.
Occasionally when a younger student is obviously tired, grumpy or having a particularly stubborn day I will play them a new piece as a way of motivating them (or just giving them a little time out) and usually it works quite well.
_________________________Private Piano and Vocal Teacher in Hobart, Tasmaniahttp://amywilesmusic.wordpress.com/
Lollipop Loc: Georgia
Interesting question - made me have to think about what I do and why, because I certainly do play an occasional piece, but not really that often.With a young beginner, such as your son, I generally would not play.
I have a current student who is similar in age to your son. She started lessons in August, and is only just beginning to learn notes on the staff. I do not play her pieces for her as a rule. They are simply 2 or 3 note patterns, as she is learning to recognize note values (quarter notes, half notes, etc), the up & down progression of notes, and so on. Suppose the pattern is C-D-E (quarter, quarter, half). If I play it, she can quickly copy me, without needing to reason out for herself the note values, the up and down, which hand and finger to use. If she learned by copying me, she would learn that piece (and quite possibly forget it before she got home, and spend a frustrating week of practice,) but she would not learn any transferable skills. She would not learn to recognize the exact things I want her to learn.This past week, she learned middle C and bass F. I taught her the notes on the staff, and we practiced matching the appropriate key to the written note. But when it came time for her to actually play the piece in her book, she needed to reason for herself which was F and which was C, without the demonstration.It is much slower to make her learn it herself, but the results (I hope) are that she is actually learning how to play piano and not just mimic by rote.Sometimes, after she has made her way through the piece (with my verbal coaching), we will "practice" together. I might play a portion, and ask her to copy it, especially if I want her to play faster, or smoother, or more confidently.
For more advanced students, I am more likely to play a piece before they do, or to give them a few sound bites, in order to more fully let them know what to expect and what to listen for in their own playing.
_________________________piano teacher
Tina2011
Thank you all for these wonderful replies and discussions! Now it does appear there are different philosophies in piano teaching, as I have vaguely heard of before.
My son is in the notes learning and reading phase, which is the Primer level book. He has started to learn piano for less than 3 months. I've been in the class for each lesson. The teacher occasionally played duet with my son, but never played the pieces of the homework. As for the CD, the teacher didn't order it, I heard that the CD is for the "Master" book? There are 4 books each level ("Lesson" and "Theory", "Master", "Techniques"), and his teacher only uses "Lesson" and "Theory" books.
I might ask the teacher why she doesn't play. My concern is that my son doesn't play the rhythm very well when cross measures, meaning when from one measure to another, he pauses longer than he should. But the teacher always says "great" (I think she tries to be encouraging, I do appreciate that but also concerned). How would my son learn the right way if there is not an example? Could he develop automatically later?
John v.d.Brook Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
--I might ask the teacher why she doesn't play. My concern is that my son doesn't play the rhythm very well when cross measures, meaning when from one measure to another, he pauses longer than he should. But the teacher always says "great" (I think she tries to be encouraging, I do appreciate that but also concerned). How would my son learn the right way if there is not an example? Could he develop automatically later?--
Playing before the student has read the piece is not the same as playing after the student has mastered the rudiments of reading the piece. I'm not certain that is clear in the minds of many posters. But most methods, and I believe this is true of the one your son is using, has the student clapping and counting the rhythm before playing the first note. If this is not being done, then there's another issue which needs addressing. Students have to feel the pulse in music, and counting, clapping, or even walking while the teacher sings (or plays) is one very successful way of helping a student internalize the pulse.I'd like to ask you another question.
You son is presumably in school and learning to read. Does the reading teacher read a paragraph and then have a student repeat after her, or does she have the student read through as best he can, pronunciation errors, timing errors, long pauses, etc.? Or does she mix it up, sometimes reading first, and other times not?When we teach a musical instrument, we have to teach reading skills simultaneously, or you end up with students who can only mimic, and the wide world of music, available through print notation, is never open to them. When learning to read, if the teacher is overly picky, the student will give up in frustration, if the teacher does not, at some point, begin refining reading and playing skills, you'll never have a competent player.
I'm still of the opinion that gainsaying your son's teacher after only 3 months is considerably premature.
_________________________"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
Tina2011
I mean now I understand that the teacher doesn't play probably because my son is in the sight-reading learning, but would it be a good idea to play for him after he finishes his homework (i.e. play the old songs)?
He'll finish his notes learning in a month, so maybe I should hold my questions until then? I really don't want to be a disturbing parent, but meanwhile I can't rest my concern.
Tina2011
John, your example of comparing music reading to literature reading is very enlighten. But if this is indeed the case, then my son, and all kids, do learn reading initially by copying: parents or teachers first read books to them before they can read themselves. When it's time they start to read, they recognize the words, but very likely mimic the timing, pauses, expressions, etc. from what they have heard.
Having said that, I think your advice to not pester the teacher at this time is very valuable. I'll wait for some time to see how it goes.
Jeani-Martini Loc: San Diego, CA
Hi Tina,I always play the song for both my adult and child students.During the lesson, I will intermittently demonstrate certain phrases, dynamics, and nuances.Sometimes I will play the left hand part while the student plays the right hand part, then we switch.I also play duets with my students.
My students can also read all of their notes on the staff.
Monaco Loc: GA
I had a group of transfer students from a particular teacher who left town. They were all playing fairly well, but none of them could read well at all. It was obvious that the teacher was showing them exactly what to do for each phrase and they were simply memorizing it. It's really unfortunate.
If you can read well, playing new songs becomes so much easier and more enjoyable. It takes a lot of the work out of being a pianist. At least through intermediate levels.If you can't read, you're dead in the water. You are forced to hold someone's hand or STRUGGLE on your own._________________________
Ben Ereddia
Piano Teacher
Beginning Tech
ten left thumbs Loc: Scotland
--I might ask the teacher why she doesn't play. My concern is that my son doesn't play the rhythm very well when cross measures, meaning when from one measure to another, he pauses longer than he should. But the teacher always says "great" (I think she tries to be encouraging, I do appreciate that but also concerned). How would my son learn the right way if there is not an example? Could he develop automatically later?--
If a parent of one of my students had a question like that, I would want to hear it sooner rather than later! smile I consider the occasional chat or review outside lesson time to be part of the job.It's a simple question - these pauses at the bar-line - how do you deal with that, when do you deal with that? And listen to what the teacher says.If there is *no* plan to deal with pulse through the music, then there is a problem.
_________________________www.justfingers.co.ukwww.babysinging.co.uk
AZNpiano Loc: Orange County, CA
--In short, if I know a student is heavily using his ears to find the correct notes, and my purpose for him is to be a good music reader, then I will not play for him.--Exactly!I do play new pieces for my elementary/beginner students IF AND ONLY IF I am confident about their note-reading abilities.I have witnessed dozens of transfer students whose note-reading abilities are either completely absent or many, many, many levels below the pieces they're working on. They rely on copying whatever their previous teachers demonstrated at the piano. These students often have great ears and superb memories, but they will only go as far as their memories will allow.
As you can imagine, trying to undo the damage is nearly impossible. And if you try to take the student down four levels to their actual level, they'll cry and ask mom to pull them out of lessons.
I get so many transfer students like this EVERY SINGLE YEAR, it's not funny anymore. Just this September, I got a "level 7" student who is still using "All Cows Eat Grass" to read bass clef. How on Earth did they get this far without learning to read notes fluently???????
_________________________Member, Music Teachers' Association of California (MTAC)Private Piano TeacherTop Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote Notify Email Post#1793368 - 11/21/11 01:38 PM Re: Do teachers play the new songs for students?
Tina2011
Many thanks to all your insights! You all made me understand much more about piano learning process. It's very interesting and helpful to hear the stories on the teachers' side."ten left thumbs" suggests a good way to communicate with the teacher, I'll just try that.
Stanza Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
As a kid, my teacher would play only to "demo" a new piece for me. It was always kind of exiting when she pulled out her folder of brand new solo pieces and would ask me to pick one. Of course they would always sound great and get me exited to pick my favorite.
ten left thumbs Loc: Scotland
Tina, I'd be interested to hear the response
Tina2011
Updates:Yesterday, we had a piano lesson and here was our conversation:
After my son played the homework, (can't remember the exact wordings, but pretty much like that)
Me: "...he stops longer when crosses measures, what can we do?"
Teacher: "He just played fine."
Me: "That was because I played for him."
Teacher: "Oh! Don't do that! Next time let him bring it here and we will work on it."
Me: "Why is that?"
Teacher: "He should work this out by himself. If you play for him now, what if it becomes too hard for you to play?"
Me: "Will you play to him when it's more advanced?"
Teacher: "No, I don't play the pieces except for ear trainings. I'll show him the hands (different styles? she played several keys with different hand positions)..."
Me: "If there isn't an example, how does he know the right way to play?"
Teacher: "It's hard to explain to you, but he will know. It's a process, hmm..., I don't want him to copy, you know? "
Me: "Okay."So now at least I know why the teacher doesn't play, although still not so convinced on the completely no-play method...how many of you learned in this way before?
AZNpiano Loc: Orange County, CA
--So now at least I know why the teacher doesn't play, although still not so convinced on the completely no-play method...how many of you learned in this way before?--
It sounds like you got a good teacher!
_________________________Member, Music Teachers' Association of California (MTAC)Private Piano Teacher
ten left thumbs Loc: Scotland
Well, I think you will find here there is a range of opinions - some teachers feel students must learn to make music from the written page (your son's teacher seems to fall into this camp) - others feel it's OK - maybe even better - to hear and repeat.For a seven year old I think it's a lot to ask - to see and interpret the written symbols, create the pulse from scratch, count, and get it right.
I don't have a problem with hearing, feeling, and repeating - whether or not he truly understands the written symbols - I just feel there is time enough for all that.
So, if your teacher specifically doesn't *want* you to model good rhythm - eek - speaking as a parent, I would have a problem with that, but it's a personal thing.
Either way, if what happened here is - you modelled, and later your son played just fine, then I'm not sure I would worry too much. Sounds like he's getting it. :)
Loc: Irvine, CA
--I don't want him to copy, you know?--
That is a good reason not to play for your son during learning period. I would do the same thing too. However, after your son learn all the notes, maybe the teacher can play the song one time so that your son can tell if the he plays the same as the teacher or not.
Regarding your son's pause between measures, how about using a metronome to practice?_________________________http://ezpiano.orgPiano lessons in Irvine, CA
keystring Loc: Canada
A good teacher will have an overall plan, and any single thing she does fits into that plan. Other teachers have their plans too. To judge at all whether an isolated decision is a good idea, they would have to understand that person's teaching. Another teacher may make a different decision, but that is also part of that teacher's overall plan. Plus the teacher knows the child whom she has taught for a period of time. Nobody here does.
What I feel good about is that this teacher seems to have reasons for what she is doing. As student or parent that always gives me confidence.
Gary D. Loc: South Florida
--That is a good reason not to play for your son during learning period. I would do the same thing too. However, after your son learn all the notes, maybe the teacher can play the song one time so that your son can tell if the he plays the same as the teacher or not.Regarding your son's pause between measures, how about using a metronome to practice?--
Get the counts fairly even first, add metronome later, and I think any of us who are rating this teacher's teaching are out of our minds.
For the most part the teacher seems to be doing what I do. I won't play things for beginners until they get close to playing them without me, because it kills reading and self-reliance. People who rely on hearing things first can easily think that this is the ONLY way to learn, and then they are crippled.However, once a student is close, I will always play for them, to show them how I think the "finished product" should be,
This is from private message:
keystringLoc: Canada Hi,My child is now an adult and entered music at university, so we went the lessons-route. I also took lessons some years after him, and since I was invited to teach in my teacher's studio when I'm at the right level I've also looked into teaching. My original lesson instrument was violin and now I am studying piano with someone - we talk pedagogy as well.
So a couple of things:Learning to play an instrument involves getting the skills. These don't come in all at once, and they don't come in evenly. Teachers will have different approaches and they may vary that approach according to the child. A given teacher may want to see note recognition become strong first, with rhythm second, or good physical action as a priority. The teacher balances and observes. He has his reasons and a loose master plan. It is loose in the sense that what he observes will also shape what he teaches.
The analogy of a child starting to read and stumbling through words he is sounding out, and then becoming fluid, is apt. (I am a former teacher, by the way, and taught mostly grade 2). There are many different skills that come together. If a child has to struggle to figure things out, and through those efforts ends up having a firm grasp of the subject, then he will be stronger at the end.Different teachers have different methodologies. Some of them may use demonstrations, imitations, or recordings as part of their methodology. They will shape their teaching around it.
But there is also the danger that some teachers will cater to a parent's wish for instant results. It looks good if the child plays fluently and accurately through imitation, and this makes the teacher look good. If other parents' teachers are doing this, it does not necessarily mean that those teachers are better, or even that results of fluent playing of something imitated is better in the long run. What skills are developed?
If you browse the teacher forum you will see tales of "transfer students" who come in playing a few pieces brilliantly. Then they discover that these students learned everything by imitation, and they can only play the pieces that they learned by imitation. They may have had 3 or 4 years of lessons yet do not understand theory, don't know how to read. But these students impressed everyone and both student and parent got fooled.There is no way of knowing whether your child's teacher is good or bad, better or worse than your friends' children's teachers. But this is what I learned about teaching music - that it is not as obvious as it may seem.
嗯，我还是半信半疑。但是真感谢这些热心的人。现在不敢在他面前练琴，也不敢教他，惊喜的是今天孩子自己会了一个新技巧。也许这个老师是对的？！当初选美国老师就是因为美国老师普遍relax，fun, （第二个原因是孩子中文说不好，美国老师交流容易些），这个老师好像是很松的，儿子每天练不到10分钟，也不是天天练，每次都过关往前学，速度比同期的孩子快。可是这样看来，其实她对学生的要求是很高的。我自己都糊涂了。
Do teachers play the new songs for students?
Hi All,My son, 6 year-old and turning 7, has just started to learn piano 3 months before with his teacher, who uses Faber's "Piano Adventure" books. We have been happy with the teacher until I talked with other piano parents and found out that some teachers always played new songs to the students before assigning homework, while our teacher never played. Even when he made a mistake, his teacher only pointed it out and wouldn't play the whole song for him.My son, and all of kids, learns better by examples. Sometimes he is not accurate with the rhythm, and after he listens to my play, he plays much better. And I am not even a piano player. I want to ask the teacher to play for him in the class, but not sure whether playing is a common practice in teaching. What are the reasons behind play and not play? Please enlighten me. Thank you a lot!
Gary D. Loc: South Florida
For the students who are quick, I do not play music for them in the first lesson. I ask them to read the music, work on it for one week. In fact, I try to slip in two new easy pages at the end of each lesson. I mark them as "new" and tell them not to worry if they can't work them out, but tell them it would be cool if they do. (I use my own materials.)But when a student asks me to play something, I NEVER refuse. In addition, no matter what I am teaching, I will demonstrate what I am teaching through playing.I would talk to the teacher before making assumptions. Be sure that the teacher never plays the music. You will not know this for sure unless you are part the lessons.
_________________________Piano Teacher
lechuan
NOT playing the song first helps to ensure that the student is learning to read the notes and rhythm. Hearing the song allows the student to "bypass" the reading to some extent, and may take them longer to develop this skill (and/or slow down their reading at later levels).But if you are concerned, discuss it with your piano teacher to find out his reasons.
John v.d.Brook Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
--What are the reasons behind play and not play? Please enlighten me. Thank you a lot!--
You asked, in the topic's title, Do teachers play the new songs for students? As my students will attest, I generally sing them songs, and play pieces for them. There is a difference. I encourage teachers to learn it and help their students learn the difference as well. In fairness, I do a lot of singing in general, because I'm trying to help them understand the concept of phrasing. But we're discussing more advanced students here.
On to your main issue - to play or not to play pieces for students. When working with upper elementary to early advanced students, I often will play through a small group of pieces for them to select their next study piece from. For elementary students who are firmly rooted in foundation study, I do not. As Gary pointed out, learning to read without first hearing is a necessary part of their training. Once the piece is in hand, we often play together, or I will play the piece several ways to help the student with ear training.
My advice is not to pester your teacher about this. In fact, it might be better to ask why your friend's teachers feel the need to play for elementary students when they should be teaching reading skills as part of developing a solid foundation.
_________________________"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
chrisbell Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
A teacher that does not play the piece for the pupil
--NOT playing the song first helps to ensure that the student is learning to read the notes and rhythm. Hearing the song allows the student to "bypass" the reading to some extent, and may take them longer to develop this skill (and/or slow down their reading at later levels).--
That is so wrong.
_________________________I never play anything the same way once.
-----------------------------------------Style is a function of our limitations, more so than a function of our skills.
lechuan
--A teacher that does not play the piece for the pupil That is so wrong.--
In what way is it so wrong?
chrisbell Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
The idea that hearing a song allows a student to bypass the reading.That's only valid if the student is working on his/her's Prima Vista skill.
This notion that it will take a student longer and maybe even be detrimental in their development goes against all current research into learning an instrument. Research shows that the opposite is much more beneficial for the student.
keystring Loc: Canada
--This notion that it will take a student longer and maybe even be detrimental in their development goes against all current research into learning an instrument. Research shows that the opposite is much more beneficial for the student.--
What research is that?
ten left thumbs Loc: Scotland
Tina, does the book have a CD? I remember the 'My First' of that series do. CD can be great for giving them a impression of what to aim for.
_________________________www.justfingers.co.ukwww.babysinging.co.uk
keystring Loc: Canada
Doesn't it make sense to talk to the teacher? If he has a reason for not having the child hear the music first, then this might undermine what he is trying to achieve.
ezpiano.org Loc: Irvine, CA
I usually play for students when……
1. When introducing a new pieces
2. When students make mistake and I show them how the correct one should sound like
I will not play for the students when……
1. When students is working on Sight-Reading
2. When I notice that student is lazy to use his eyes to look at the music notes on the page and use his ears to find the notes (I can tell when they are playing wrong notes, they usually will play one higher or lower until they “hear” the notes right instead of using their eyes on the page.)
In short, if I know a student is heavily using his ears to find the correct notes, and my purpose for him is to be a good music reader, then I will not play for him.
_________________________http://ezpiano.orgPiano lessons in Irvine, CA
ymapazagain Loc: Hobart, Australia
I will sometimes play a piece for a student if it is introducing a new concept (such as the first time they encounter triplets or the pedal etc.) so that the student can follow the music and see how the new concept works within context. But if there's nothing new within the piece then I'll have the student work it out without hearing it as I believe that this is an important skill.
Occasionally when a younger student is obviously tired, grumpy or having a particularly stubborn day I will play them a new piece as a way of motivating them (or just giving them a little time out) and usually it works quite well.
_________________________Private Piano and Vocal Teacher in Hobart, Tasmaniahttp://amywilesmusic.wordpress.com/
Lollipop Loc: Georgia
Interesting question - made me have to think about what I do and why, because I certainly do play an occasional piece, but not really that often.With a young beginner, such as your son, I generally would not play.
I have a current student who is similar in age to your son. She started lessons in August, and is only just beginning to learn notes on the staff. I do not play her pieces for her as a rule. They are simply 2 or 3 note patterns, as she is learning to recognize note values (quarter notes, half notes, etc), the up & down progression of notes, and so on. Suppose the pattern is C-D-E (quarter, quarter, half). If I play it, she can quickly copy me, without needing to reason out for herself the note values, the up and down, which hand and finger to use. If she learned by copying me, she would learn that piece (and quite possibly forget it before she got home, and spend a frustrating week of practice,) but she would not learn any transferable skills. She would not learn to recognize the exact things I want her to learn.This past week, she learned middle C and bass F. I taught her the notes on the staff, and we practiced matching the appropriate key to the written note. But when it came time for her to actually play the piece in her book, she needed to reason for herself which was F and which was C, without the demonstration.It is much slower to make her learn it herself, but the results (I hope) are that she is actually learning how to play piano and not just mimic by rote.Sometimes, after she has made her way through the piece (with my verbal coaching), we will "practice" together. I might play a portion, and ask her to copy it, especially if I want her to play faster, or smoother, or more confidently.
For more advanced students, I am more likely to play a piece before they do, or to give them a few sound bites, in order to more fully let them know what to expect and what to listen for in their own playing.
_________________________piano teacher
Tina2011
Thank you all for these wonderful replies and discussions! Now it does appear there are different philosophies in piano teaching, as I have vaguely heard of before.
My son is in the notes learning and reading phase, which is the Primer level book. He has started to learn piano for less than 3 months. I've been in the class for each lesson. The teacher occasionally played duet with my son, but never played the pieces of the homework. As for the CD, the teacher didn't order it, I heard that the CD is for the "Master" book? There are 4 books each level ("Lesson" and "Theory", "Master", "Techniques"), and his teacher only uses "Lesson" and "Theory" books.
I might ask the teacher why she doesn't play. My concern is that my son doesn't play the rhythm very well when cross measures, meaning when from one measure to another, he pauses longer than he should. But the teacher always says "great" (I think she tries to be encouraging, I do appreciate that but also concerned). How would my son learn the right way if there is not an example? Could he develop automatically later?
John v.d.Brook Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
--I might ask the teacher why she doesn't play. My concern is that my son doesn't play the rhythm very well when cross measures, meaning when from one measure to another, he pauses longer than he should. But the teacher always says "great" (I think she tries to be encouraging, I do appreciate that but also concerned). How would my son learn the right way if there is not an example? Could he develop automatically later?--
Playing before the student has read the piece is not the same as playing after the student has mastered the rudiments of reading the piece. I'm not certain that is clear in the minds of many posters. But most methods, and I believe this is true of the one your son is using, has the student clapping and counting the rhythm before playing the first note. If this is not being done, then there's another issue which needs addressing. Students have to feel the pulse in music, and counting, clapping, or even walking while the teacher sings (or plays) is one very successful way of helping a student internalize the pulse.I'd like to ask you another question.
You son is presumably in school and learning to read. Does the reading teacher read a paragraph and then have a student repeat after her, or does she have the student read through as best he can, pronunciation errors, timing errors, long pauses, etc.? Or does she mix it up, sometimes reading first, and other times not?When we teach a musical instrument, we have to teach reading skills simultaneously, or you end up with students who can only mimic, and the wide world of music, available through print notation, is never open to them. When learning to read, if the teacher is overly picky, the student will give up in frustration, if the teacher does not, at some point, begin refining reading and playing skills, you'll never have a competent player.
I'm still of the opinion that gainsaying your son's teacher after only 3 months is considerably premature.
_________________________"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry DannFull-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.comCertified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
Tina2011
I mean now I understand that the teacher doesn't play probably because my son is in the sight-reading learning, but would it be a good idea to play for him after he finishes his homework (i.e. play the old songs)?
He'll finish his notes learning in a month, so maybe I should hold my questions until then? I really don't want to be a disturbing parent, but meanwhile I can't rest my concern.
Tina2011
John, your example of comparing music reading to literature reading is very enlighten. But if this is indeed the case, then my son, and all kids, do learn reading initially by copying: parents or teachers first read books to them before they can read themselves. When it's time they start to read, they recognize the words, but very likely mimic the timing, pauses, expressions, etc. from what they have heard.
Having said that, I think your advice to not pester the teacher at this time is very valuable. I'll wait for some time to see how it goes.
Jeani-Martini Loc: San Diego, CA
Hi Tina,I always play the song for both my adult and child students.During the lesson, I will intermittently demonstrate certain phrases, dynamics, and nuances.Sometimes I will play the left hand part while the student plays the right hand part, then we switch.I also play duets with my students.
My students can also read all of their notes on the staff.
Monaco Loc: GA
I had a group of transfer students from a particular teacher who left town. They were all playing fairly well, but none of them could read well at all. It was obvious that the teacher was showing them exactly what to do for each phrase and they were simply memorizing it. It's really unfortunate.
If you can read well, playing new songs becomes so much easier and more enjoyable. It takes a lot of the work out of being a pianist. At least through intermediate levels.If you can't read, you're dead in the water. You are forced to hold someone's hand or STRUGGLE on your own._________________________
Ben Ereddia
Piano Teacher
Beginning Tech
ten left thumbs Loc: Scotland
--I might ask the teacher why she doesn't play. My concern is that my son doesn't play the rhythm very well when cross measures, meaning when from one measure to another, he pauses longer than he should. But the teacher always says "great" (I think she tries to be encouraging, I do appreciate that but also concerned). How would my son learn the right way if there is not an example? Could he develop automatically later?--
If a parent of one of my students had a question like that, I would want to hear it sooner rather than later! smile I consider the occasional chat or review outside lesson time to be part of the job.It's a simple question - these pauses at the bar-line - how do you deal with that, when do you deal with that? And listen to what the teacher says.If there is *no* plan to deal with pulse through the music, then there is a problem.
_________________________www.justfingers.co.ukwww.babysinging.co.uk
AZNpiano Loc: Orange County, CA
--In short, if I know a student is heavily using his ears to find the correct notes, and my purpose for him is to be a good music reader, then I will not play for him.--Exactly!I do play new pieces for my elementary/beginner students IF AND ONLY IF I am confident about their note-reading abilities.I have witnessed dozens of transfer students whose note-reading abilities are either completely absent or many, many, many levels below the pieces they're working on. They rely on copying whatever their previous teachers demonstrated at the piano. These students often have great ears and superb memories, but they will only go as far as their memories will allow.
As you can imagine, trying to undo the damage is nearly impossible. And if you try to take the student down four levels to their actual level, they'll cry and ask mom to pull them out of lessons.
I get so many transfer students like this EVERY SINGLE YEAR, it's not funny anymore. Just this September, I got a "level 7" student who is still using "All Cows Eat Grass" to read bass clef. How on Earth did they get this far without learning to read notes fluently???????
_________________________Member, Music Teachers' Association of California (MTAC)Private Piano TeacherTop Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote Notify Email Post#1793368 - 11/21/11 01:38 PM Re: Do teachers play the new songs for students?
Tina2011
Many thanks to all your insights! You all made me understand much more about piano learning process. It's very interesting and helpful to hear the stories on the teachers' side."ten left thumbs" suggests a good way to communicate with the teacher, I'll just try that.
Stanza Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
As a kid, my teacher would play only to "demo" a new piece for me. It was always kind of exiting when she pulled out her folder of brand new solo pieces and would ask me to pick one. Of course they would always sound great and get me exited to pick my favorite.
ten left thumbs Loc: Scotland
Tina, I'd be interested to hear the response
Tina2011
Updates:Yesterday, we had a piano lesson and here was our conversation:
After my son played the homework, (can't remember the exact wordings, but pretty much like that)
Me: "...he stops longer when crosses measures, what can we do?"
Teacher: "He just played fine."
Me: "That was because I played for him."
Teacher: "Oh! Don't do that! Next time let him bring it here and we will work on it."
Me: "Why is that?"
Teacher: "He should work this out by himself. If you play for him now, what if it becomes too hard for you to play?"
Me: "Will you play to him when it's more advanced?"
Teacher: "No, I don't play the pieces except for ear trainings. I'll show him the hands (different styles? she played several keys with different hand positions)..."
Me: "If there isn't an example, how does he know the right way to play?"
Teacher: "It's hard to explain to you, but he will know. It's a process, hmm..., I don't want him to copy, you know? "
Me: "Okay."So now at least I know why the teacher doesn't play, although still not so convinced on the completely no-play method...how many of you learned in this way before?
AZNpiano Loc: Orange County, CA
--So now at least I know why the teacher doesn't play, although still not so convinced on the completely no-play method...how many of you learned in this way before?--
It sounds like you got a good teacher!
_________________________Member, Music Teachers' Association of California (MTAC)Private Piano Teacher
ten left thumbs Loc: Scotland
Well, I think you will find here there is a range of opinions - some teachers feel students must learn to make music from the written page (your son's teacher seems to fall into this camp) - others feel it's OK - maybe even better - to hear and repeat.For a seven year old I think it's a lot to ask - to see and interpret the written symbols, create the pulse from scratch, count, and get it right.
I don't have a problem with hearing, feeling, and repeating - whether or not he truly understands the written symbols - I just feel there is time enough for all that.
So, if your teacher specifically doesn't *want* you to model good rhythm - eek - speaking as a parent, I would have a problem with that, but it's a personal thing.
Either way, if what happened here is - you modelled, and later your son played just fine, then I'm not sure I would worry too much. Sounds like he's getting it. :)
Loc: Irvine, CA
--I don't want him to copy, you know?--
That is a good reason not to play for your son during learning period. I would do the same thing too. However, after your son learn all the notes, maybe the teacher can play the song one time so that your son can tell if the he plays the same as the teacher or not.
Regarding your son's pause between measures, how about using a metronome to practice?_________________________http://ezpiano.orgPiano lessons in Irvine, CA
keystring Loc: Canada
A good teacher will have an overall plan, and any single thing she does fits into that plan. Other teachers have their plans too. To judge at all whether an isolated decision is a good idea, they would have to understand that person's teaching. Another teacher may make a different decision, but that is also part of that teacher's overall plan. Plus the teacher knows the child whom she has taught for a period of time. Nobody here does.
What I feel good about is that this teacher seems to have reasons for what she is doing. As student or parent that always gives me confidence.
Gary D. Loc: South Florida
--That is a good reason not to play for your son during learning period. I would do the same thing too. However, after your son learn all the notes, maybe the teacher can play the song one time so that your son can tell if the he plays the same as the teacher or not.Regarding your son's pause between measures, how about using a metronome to practice?--
Get the counts fairly even first, add metronome later, and I think any of us who are rating this teacher's teaching are out of our minds.
For the most part the teacher seems to be doing what I do. I won't play things for beginners until they get close to playing them without me, because it kills reading and self-reliance. People who rely on hearing things first can easily think that this is the ONLY way to learn, and then they are crippled.However, once a student is close, I will always play for them, to show them how I think the "finished product" should be,
This is from private message:
keystringLoc: Canada Hi,My child is now an adult and entered music at university, so we went the lessons-route. I also took lessons some years after him, and since I was invited to teach in my teacher's studio when I'm at the right level I've also looked into teaching. My original lesson instrument was violin and now I am studying piano with someone - we talk pedagogy as well.
So a couple of things:Learning to play an instrument involves getting the skills. These don't come in all at once, and they don't come in evenly. Teachers will have different approaches and they may vary that approach according to the child. A given teacher may want to see note recognition become strong first, with rhythm second, or good physical action as a priority. The teacher balances and observes. He has his reasons and a loose master plan. It is loose in the sense that what he observes will also shape what he teaches.
The analogy of a child starting to read and stumbling through words he is sounding out, and then becoming fluid, is apt. (I am a former teacher, by the way, and taught mostly grade 2). There are many different skills that come together. If a child has to struggle to figure things out, and through those efforts ends up having a firm grasp of the subject, then he will be stronger at the end.Different teachers have different methodologies. Some of them may use demonstrations, imitations, or recordings as part of their methodology. They will shape their teaching around it.
But there is also the danger that some teachers will cater to a parent's wish for instant results. It looks good if the child plays fluently and accurately through imitation, and this makes the teacher look good. If other parents' teachers are doing this, it does not necessarily mean that those teachers are better, or even that results of fluent playing of something imitated is better in the long run. What skills are developed?
If you browse the teacher forum you will see tales of "transfer students" who come in playing a few pieces brilliantly. Then they discover that these students learned everything by imitation, and they can only play the pieces that they learned by imitation. They may have had 3 or 4 years of lessons yet do not understand theory, don't know how to read. But these students impressed everyone and both student and parent got fooled.There is no way of knowing whether your child's teacher is good or bad, better or worse than your friends' children's teachers. But this is what I learned about teaching music - that it is not as obvious as it may seem.
嗯，我还是半信半疑。但是真感谢这些热心的人。现在不敢在他面前练琴，也不敢教他，惊喜的是今天孩子自己会了一个新技巧。也许这个老师是对的？！当初选美国老师就是因为美国老师普遍relax，fun, （第二个原因是孩子中文说不好，美国老师交流容易些），这个老师好像是很松的，儿子每天练不到10分钟，也不是天天练，每次都过关往前学，速度比同期的孩子快。可是这样看来，其实她对学生的要求是很高的。我自己都糊涂了。
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