Many people, including myself, still think classic/old Chinese is more 精简 than what we are using today .... maybe that's why in wx000's version, there is a flavor of that .... however, in poetry, we cannot use classic Chinese without being tongue-in-cheek....
"但我知道OCTAVES在这里不是副词，不足以修饰DANCING。。。"
You are right .... it is a noun here ....
My point is not to get hung on one or two lines .... my omnium-gatherum was to show the good choices in all three versions....my personal taste only....
Looking at the three versions together, we see the difference between wx000's and yy and zf's.....actually, in the original, "childhood" does not modify "octaves"....so, wx000's choice is more correct semantically....he also turned "limbs" into "羽翼," which i think it's awesome!
Language wise, wx000 chose to use more "poetic" words throughout the whole poem, i.e. "永恒之川".... everybody seems to like the "之"....why??
Do you still say this word at home with your parents, brothers and sisters??
Then, why do you think this is a good choice??
Either writing or translating a poem, you need to look at the poem as a whole!!
For an imperfect poem like this, the key is the consistency and the musicality!
地中海人鱼2006-04-14 06:26:14回复悄悄话
I am always too late...
the most creative translation is :
永恒之川
带走我的
哀伤.......................terrific!
and to be very honest, the worst one is:
稚嫩的羽翼
随音乐
曼舞.......................simpler would be better
wx0002006-04-13 22:27:04回复悄悄话
You all have very good and valuable points in this discussion. There should be a better translation and it also would be helpful if Mr. z.z can give some “hint” about the meaning of the poem you originally wanted to convey.
I understand yy’s feeling about “dancing on my soft limb”. I was puzzled by this line (when picking Chinese words) and just decided to go on my own. Most likely the translation has drifted away from the original meaning of this part of poem.
I appreciate your enthusiasm toward the art of poetry. I just want to be a good reader who can enjoy the beauty of poetry.
Thank You and Best Regards!
作舟诗集2006-04-13 20:05:40回复悄悄话
no one can touch your feelings, i am sure.... :)
no, i don't think you are "against" anything ....
maybe you can come up with better translation.....
cheers!!
y.y.2006-04-13 20:00:14回复悄悄话
okay. Applause . . . but i have to say, i am not against him from the beginning of the discussion . . .
i still keep my feeling for " dancing on my soft limb" for myself . . . i cherish the sensibility in it . . . something can not be comprimised
:)
z.z.2006-04-13 19:49:07回复悄悄话
part of the poem was to experiement with the "new age" words ...
so, we should give wx000 credit for being creative... :)
y.y.2006-04-13 19:44:57回复悄悄话
"morph," "octave" and "resurrection" . . .
yes! i looked up in the dictionary and tried to find something fits, but in vain . . .
octave . . . indeed when i saw this word, i thought of an old man who played an Octave bell [a very old musical instrument] one day . . .
z.z.2006-04-13 18:20:47回复悄悄话
wow, such high spirited discussion!!!
i seem to have followed everyone's ideas until later.....you all have touched on something interesting, that is because Poetry is interesting....it is not like discussing Math or Chemistry....:)
no one needs to be apologitic because we are talking about art/poetry, not gossiping .... however, such discussion helps me to know you [words reveal our personalities]....i do want to know all of you .... :)
Mr. wx000 has told us that he is not a "poet"....very smart :) but he surprised us by giving a good rendition of the poem.....
the words he chose in his version is more "poetic," as far as Chinese goes, than y.y. and z.f.'s....usually, i don't like the "poetic Chinese" because they don't work for me anymore.....but in wx000's version, it seems to work....
as you have noticed, "morph," "octave" and "resurrection" are more problematic than "soft limbs" when translated....no one has found a "perfect" match for "octave," for example.....
in translation, it's called "compensating" when the translator does not know the exact equivalents.....wx000 did not choose to do a literal translation [it is obvious that he thought hard about it].....
from your feedback, i come to appreciate more and more all friends' artistic sensibility and knowledge......
the more i write poems, the less i feel i know about "poetry"....
:)
y.y.2006-04-13 17:47:08回复悄悄话 that's joking, can't you see? :)
good to see you laugh :)
i don't want you to take my words personal.
"You" also includes me when i say "Can you see your hip sing? "
:)
z.f.2006-04-13 17:30:04回复悄悄话
we learn from each other . . .!!!!!!
share and enjoy . . .!!!!!!
no “红缨枪”:))))))
y.y.2006-04-13 16:50:28回复悄悄话
we learn from each other . . . which can indrease the depth of our life . . . because we cannot experience what all other can experience. . . .
if "稚嫩的羽翼" can that easily torn away, then we'd better read more poems . . .
just kidding :)
y.y.2006-04-13 16:44:00回复悄悄话
criticism is Passion and Fire too !!!
if you look into the history of modern poetry/art . . . poets, critics, artists have formed into group to share their minds and inspired each other . . . and brought out the golden age of poetry and art . . . great poets can be great critics too . . . can not name all of them . . .
as i said before, share and enjoy . . .
:)
z.f.2006-04-13 16:32:18回复悄悄话
What I see
might be Invisible
to you though
our Hearts are made
of the same texts
如果你说的那些我没有看到，我想我写不出：
“英文注重用生命的本质追寻人之本性(NATURE)。。。
永恒之川，诗歌也。。。带走我的/哀伤。。。”
这样的简单里包含的我的思考。。。
永恒之川，诗歌也，爱，诗歌也。。。
而其实什么又是什么？only to grow。。。
我“闭嘴”争论。。。因为没有人能说服谁，更何况我们在为概念“诗意”各说各的。。。据我所知，我们好像是从“诗意”说起的吧，从the sense of language说起的吧? 。。。最终我们各说各的。。。:)))
我在这里所说的是我个人的感受，只是感受，非“JOB”。。。谢谢你们！！！
我从不相信“群众的眼睛是雪亮的”。。。:))
对了，我刚看到你的“红缨枪”:)))
最后我想说的是，对诗歌也罢，写作也罢，或是其他读者的翻译也罢 "Honest criticism means nothing: what one wants is unrestrained passion, fire for fire."
i have to say this is a word game :) same word in different places does not have same meaning . . .
i am talking about the Language itself . . . which has nothing to do with philosophy . . . when philosophy becomes the focus for a poem, the poem will become proverb . . . for example, Taoism is not poetry, though a poem can express that . . .
:)
z.f.2006-04-13 13:50:26回复悄悄话
first language vs. foreign language
我的体会是每次我翻译完，都觉得没有表达我对英文的本来感觉和理解。。。it is the sense of language。。。
wx000的翻译给我带来我对中文的领会。。。感觉wx000是在用心读诗，并用"地道的"中文来表达，很佩服。。。作舟将中文的语言和情感进一步发挥，给人a "new feeling"。。。
但我个人的看法是，作舟的诗歌创作里，变幻转化，没有主“义”是我比较欣赏的，什么能永恒？人之生命短暂，稍纵即逝，什么是什么？永恒之川，诗歌也。。。带走我的/哀伤。。。
“R U a prisoner of TIME??”。。。我以为没有限制，能随心所欲自如“创造”又能给现代人带来“美”的感受的最现代。。。艺术就是要打破看不见的各种束缚！
y.y.2006-04-13 12:29:21回复悄悄话
Not only about the sense of language. Though the translation for a poem does not always capture what’s in the original one, we can still feel how close they are because words can “conjure” up what’s hidden in them. It also depends on how a translator reads and understands the poem, and the poet. For example, among all the English translations for Octavio Paz’poems, I love Eliot Weinberger’s most, who has devoted almost his life to his works. He can capture the “coolness”, “darkness”, and “heaviness” in a very clean and simple language, and render them in a way that I feel Paz wrote them though I’ve never read the Spanish versions. Reading Paz’s other writings, background, and conversations has convinced me that his rendering is like mirroring.
Of course, here I am not talking about who is the best - - - we all Enjoy writing and translating and sharing our minds here - - - but that understanding a poem may help a translator smooth his/her translation.
Indeed I also thought about Poetic Language and what makes language poetic? Sometimes archaic languages bury the beauty of modern poetry because they already have their own “framed” meanings. A little bit awkward when it tries to wrap a great Modern spirit : ) And, also a sacrifice . . . I guess, my perception of “Modern” is forcing me to speak out . . .: )
Resurrection for language: )
That’s how I feel. Sharing is not for fighting : )
Enjoy : )
z.f.2006-04-12 23:25:00回复悄悄话
Moon River, wider than a mile,
I'm crossing you in style some day.
Oh, dream maker, you heart breaker,
wherever you're going I'm going your way.
Two drifters off to see the world.
There's such a lot of world to see.
We're after the same rainbow's end--
waiting 'round the bend,
my huckleberry friend,
Moon River and me.
sd, don't make me cry again...I was soooo young when my tears dropped for this song...
"Oh, dream maker, you heart breaker..."
I am reading poetry because I think a poem is not a dream...and a poet is not a dream maker...
泪珠晶莹 for a poem...
by水滴2006-04-12 23:05:32回复悄悄话
"Moon river" By Andy Williams
One of my favorate American folk song. :)
by水滴2006-04-12 22:52:25回复悄悄话
I like this version very much! strikely beautiful! Thanks!
尽管一首诗歌是整体效果，但总有几句会带来特别的感受吧。有时一首诗歌里令
人难忘的或许只有一句。
okay, time to get out of this one : )
之 与川： 很精简，所以有力度！川 里还有“敬”之心。
Many people, including myself, still think classic/old Chinese is more 精简 than what we are using today .... maybe that's why in wx000's version, there is a flavor of that .... however, in poetry, we cannot use classic Chinese without being tongue-in-cheek....
"但我知道OCTAVES在这里不是副词，不足以修饰DANCING。。。"
You are right .... it is a noun here ....
My point is not to get hung on one or two lines .... my omnium-gatherum was to show the good choices in all three versions....my personal taste only....
:)
cheers!
我想说的，也已经说了很多；对於语言的偏好，以及与读诗的感受不一样，翻出来
就不一样了。
选择肢体，除了因为接近语言本身，而且它具有质感[FLESH]，我想抓住的是身体上
感觉复苏时的感觉。。。给予了MEMORY来临时的动感。。。而且它表达出某种很暗
色的有些类似忧伤的感觉。。。OCTAVE可以有HIDDEN的意思，所以选择了无声的。
这里面对我而言，是一种视觉与心灵的震撼。和我最初读到HIDING PLACE时有很类
似的感觉。。。我之所以没有选择音乐，和自己的审美观有关。。在一种无声里的，
但我知道OCTAVES在这里不是副词，不足以修饰DANCING。。。
但必须承认WX000的整首翻译是很完整很美与飘逸的，也很准确。只能说，有些自己
感受到的没有在里面而已。。。
如童年
在我柔软的
肢体上
无声地
舞
ZF:
像孩提的
音乐舞在
我柔软的
肢体
wx000:
稚嫩的羽翼
随音乐
曼舞
Looking at the three versions together, we see the difference between wx000's and yy and zf's.....actually, in the original, "childhood" does not modify "octaves"....so, wx000's choice is more correct semantically....he also turned "limbs" into "羽翼," which i think it's awesome!
Language wise, wx000 chose to use more "poetic" words throughout the whole poem, i.e. "永恒之川".... everybody seems to like the "之"....why??
Do you still say this word at home with your parents, brothers and sisters??
Then, why do you think this is a good choice??
Either writing or translating a poem, you need to look at the poem as a whole!!
For an imperfect poem like this, the key is the consistency and the musicality!
the most creative translation is :
永恒之川
带走我的
哀伤.......................terrific!
and to be very honest, the worst one is:
稚嫩的羽翼
随音乐
曼舞.......................simpler would be better
I understand yy’s feeling about “dancing on my soft limb”. I was puzzled by this line (when picking Chinese words) and just decided to go on my own. Most likely the translation has drifted away from the original meaning of this part of poem.
I appreciate your enthusiasm toward the art of poetry. I just want to be a good reader who can enjoy the beauty of poetry.
Thank You and Best Regards!
no, i don't think you are "against" anything ....
maybe you can come up with better translation.....
cheers!!
i still keep my feeling for " dancing on my soft limb" for myself . . . i cherish the sensibility in it . . . something can not be comprimised
:)
so, we should give wx000 credit for being creative... :)
yes! i looked up in the dictionary and tried to find something fits, but in vain . . .
octave . . . indeed when i saw this word, i thought of an old man who played an Octave bell [a very old musical instrument] one day . . .
i seem to have followed everyone's ideas until later.....you all have touched on something interesting, that is because Poetry is interesting....it is not like discussing Math or Chemistry....:)
no one needs to be apologitic because we are talking about art/poetry, not gossiping .... however, such discussion helps me to know you [words reveal our personalities]....i do want to know all of you .... :)
Mr. wx000 has told us that he is not a "poet"....very smart :) but he surprised us by giving a good rendition of the poem.....
the words he chose in his version is more "poetic," as far as Chinese goes, than y.y. and z.f.'s....usually, i don't like the "poetic Chinese" because they don't work for me anymore.....but in wx000's version, it seems to work....
as you have noticed, "morph," "octave" and "resurrection" are more problematic than "soft limbs" when translated....no one has found a "perfect" match for "octave," for example.....
in translation, it's called "compensating" when the translator does not know the exact equivalents.....wx000 did not choose to do a literal translation [it is obvious that he thought hard about it].....
from your feedback, i come to appreciate more and more all friends' artistic sensibility and knowledge......
the more i write poems, the less i feel i know about "poetry"....
:)
that's joking, can't you see? :)
good to see you laugh :)
i don't want you to take my words personal.
"You" also includes me when i say "Can you see your hip sing? "
:)
share and enjoy . . .!!!!!!
no “红缨枪”:))))))
if "稚嫩的羽翼" can that easily torn away, then we'd better read more poems . . .
just kidding :)
if you look into the history of modern poetry/art . . . poets, critics, artists have formed into group to share their minds and inspired each other . . . and brought out the golden age of poetry and art . . . great poets can be great critics too . . . can not name all of them . . .
as i said before, share and enjoy . . .
:)
might be Invisible
to you though
our Hearts are made
of the same texts
如果你说的那些我没有看到，我想我写不出：
“英文注重用生命的本质追寻人之本性(NATURE)。。。
永恒之川，诗歌也。。。带走我的/哀伤。。。”
这样的简单里包含的我的思考。。。
永恒之川，诗歌也，爱，诗歌也。。。
而其实什么又是什么？only to grow。。。
我“闭嘴”争论。。。因为没有人能说服谁，更何况我们在为概念“诗意”各说各的。。。据我所知，我们好像是从“诗意”说起的吧，从the sense of language说起的吧? 。。。最终我们各说各的。。。:)))
我在这里所说的是我个人的感受，只是感受，非“JOB”。。。谢谢你们！！！
我从不相信“群众的眼睛是雪亮的”。。。:))
对了，我刚看到你的“红缨枪”:)))
最后我想说的是，对诗歌也罢，写作也罢，或是其他读者的翻译也罢 "Honest criticism means nothing: what one wants is unrestrained passion, fire for fire."
我们在这里把问题讨论得再清楚（更何况不可能清楚:），不如给诗人们一点写诗的灵感或创作的冲动更有意思。。。给读者更多的参与进来的激情来翻译来分享来表现他们潜在的才华来爱诗歌更有意思。。。我本以为我可以做一个更高级一点的读者。。。:)) （我“稚嫩的羽翼”似乎又被打倒了:)))
我说过我只是一个读者，即使这个世界上没有一个人同意我说的，“虽千万人，吾往矣！”
"完全同意 yy， 我的灌水翻译就是为了抛砖引玉， 促进讨论。 "
you makes me laugh heartily :) Not feeling guilty . . . thanks, friend . . .you did a great "job" !
having fun!!!
“人的起舞”
...羽翼...曼舞 (非“人”非“常”也)
Can you see your hip sing?
Can you see a fish tell the secret of love?
Can you see a flower think?
. . .
Then can you see Childhood dance?
The sensation of awareness and the subtlety of feelings are weakened when "Wings" are used here . . .
But we do see you, him, her, me, it, us . . . dance . . .with our naked eyes. Here is more what we feel in our inner eyes . . . of heart.
And can't you feel some beauty of poetry is gone soundlessly?
: )
not necessary :) here is a place to share :)
得，说了半天，多是废话傻话稚嫩的话，我闭嘴:)))
"modern" in itself already means breaking rules, that's why old clothes are hard for it put on
:)
i have to say this is a word game :) same word in different places does not have same meaning . . .
i am talking about the Language itself . . . which has nothing to do with philosophy . . . when philosophy becomes the focus for a poem, the poem will become proverb . . . for example, Taoism is not poetry, though a poem can express that . . .
:)
我的体会是每次我翻译完，都觉得没有表达我对英文的本来感觉和理解。。。it is the sense of language。。。
wx000的翻译给我带来我对中文的领会。。。感觉wx000是在用心读诗，并用"地道的"中文来表达，很佩服。。。作舟将中文的语言和情感进一步发挥，给人a "new feeling"。。。
YY：“是人的起舞” 。。。
...羽翼...曼舞 (非“人”非“常”也)
我喜欢这句里用的"稚嫩的羽翼" （无限底蕴...）..YY说得没错，确实有些空，但因为“稚嫩”一词而不泛，是像空气一样的空。。。诗歌不是空气吗？
一条河/如童年/流过我的心...中文里的这条河...流过我的"心"
心
与
(逝去的已复活)
此刻
:
你是我的
全部
这样的感情很搭配，永恒之川。。。带走我的哀伤。。。
我的感觉这首诗歌的中文和英文读来是完全不一样的感觉，各有POETIC的美之所在，奇妙之美，奇异之美。。。其实从这里我们可以看出中文与英文世界的不同，中文因文化的压抑只能用羽翼来追求人之本性（NATURE）。。。而英文更注重生命的本质追寻人之本性(NATURE)。。。无论哪一种语言我以为都是寻求一个“性”（NATURE）字。。。但是各自不同的“诗意”的美我以为很可以观其文化差异。。。对于“诗意”我至今不是很理解这个专业名词，我常从诗歌给我的直觉来感觉是否有诗意。。。我感觉这首诗的英文诗很诗意，中文诗也很诗意。。。诗意到底来自何处？？？
我非常欣赏YY对诗歌的态度。。。
但我个人的看法是，作舟的诗歌创作里，变幻转化，没有主“义”是我比较欣赏的，什么能永恒？人之生命短暂，稍纵即逝，什么是什么？永恒之川，诗歌也。。。带走我的/哀伤。。。
“R U a prisoner of TIME??”。。。我以为没有限制，能随心所欲自如“创造”又能给现代人带来“美”的感受的最现代。。。艺术就是要打破看不见的各种束缚！
Of course, here I am not talking about who is the best - - - we all Enjoy writing and translating and sharing our minds here - - - but that understanding a poem may help a translator smooth his/her translation.
Indeed I also thought about Poetic Language and what makes language poetic? Sometimes archaic languages bury the beauty of modern poetry because they already have their own “framed” meanings. A little bit awkward when it tries to wrap a great Modern spirit : ) And, also a sacrifice . . . I guess, my perception of “Modern” is forcing me to speak out . . .: )
Resurrection for language: )
That’s how I feel. Sharing is not for fighting : )
Enjoy : )
这是一次欢乐的聚会。
细细琢磨，我还是喜欢wx000, yy
and zf. 各自的不同所译，如果各取其一成为一首，难免顾此失彼。
这种扬弃可能会影响了他们之间不同理解的联系。
由于我的英文水准差，也就没有机会去体味译制作舟诗的过程带给你们的快乐和激情。
以前我向yy也请教过类似的问题。
作为旁听者，有时我能感到在欢乐聚会时不同理解带给我的审美冲动。
因此，我更喜欢前者。
it brings back memory too.....forget how long ago i heard it on a cassette tape....high school, maybe?
:)
yy,
you seem to point out the discrepency between an original poem and its translation.....
i think it is the sense of language [discussed downstairs]....
first language vs. foreign language
maybe that is why the poem didn't come to me in Chinese.....
one thing that helps me write poems is to remember that whether the language we use in poems is the language we can use in daily life.....
in English, the words i use in poems i also use them outside the poems....
cheers to you all!!
这首翻译，如果当作一首借原诗的意的再创，无可挑剔。但如果和原诗来比较，它
少了些许诗意，尽管用词很美，尤其在这一句上：
“稚嫩的羽翼
随音乐
曼舞”
这句很美，但多来自词语本身，而不是词语底下展现或蕴含的POETIC的美，因为它
属於“常见”的现象，是人的起舞，有些空泛。
like childhood
Octaves dancing
on my soft
limbs
在原诗里，童年被拟人化了，具有血肉；它在一个或许卧躺的人的四肢上的起舞，
有种奇异的美，令人感觉到它轻微的脚步在唤醒每一个沉睡的感受：回忆和生命的
复苏。与后来的“复活” 有着遥相呼应。
但我喜欢翻译里“永恒之川”，大气！
I'm crossing you in style some day.
Oh, dream maker, you heart breaker,
wherever you're going I'm going your way.
Two drifters off to see the world.
There's such a lot of world to see.
We're after the same rainbow's end--
waiting 'round the bend,
my huckleberry friend,
Moon River and me.
sd, don't make me cry again...I was soooo young when my tears dropped for this song...
"Oh, dream maker, you heart breaker..."
I am reading poetry because I think a poem is not a dream...and a poet is not a dream maker...
泪珠晶莹 for a poem...
One of my favorate American folk song. :)
i think i know what you mean.....but i do like you guys' translations ...
wx000,
i like the way you read a poem...!!!
the mood is changed .... especially in a poem, a single word has its place and meaning ...
i put 哀伤 at the end to emphasize "what has been taken away"...
but the English version, ending with "away," seems to have ensured that "my sorrow has been taken away"...the result, i mean.....
there is also the "sound effect" in both languages that influence the reader's mood.....
that's how i see it.....
thanx!
Cheers!
you guys are all
very creative!!
cheers!