亚里士多德 - 孔子对话，杰弗里·萨克斯对话潘基文

如果亚里士多德和孔子今天能够聚在一起谈论全球化，他们最终能否解决一些最紧迫的挑战？ 这场对话想象了两位哲学家辩论并确定民主和治理模式需要发展的方式。

联合国第八任秘书长潘基文； 潘基文美好未来基金会主席

Jeffrey Sachs，哥伦比亚大学可持续发展中心主任

由《纽约时报》巴黎分社社长、雅典民主论坛主持人罗杰·科恩主持

If Aristotle and Confucius were able to come together to talk about globalization today, could they ultimately resolve some of its most pressing challenges? This dialogue imagines the two philosophers debating and determining the ways models of democracy and governance need to evolve.

Ban Ki-moon, 8th Secretary General of the United Nations; Chair, Ban Ki-moon Foundation for a Better Future

Jeffrey Sachs, Director, Center for Sustainable Development, Columbia University

Moderated by Roger Cohen, Paris Bureau Chief, The New York Times and Host of the Athens Democracy Forum

亚里士多德 - 孔子对话，杰弗里·萨克斯对话潘基文

Aristotle-Confucius Dialogue, Jeffrey Sachs, Ban Ki-Moon

Athens Democracy Forum 2022

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnnRXZnAtF0&ab_channel=

Introduction 
foreign [Music]
0:27
civilizations so 2016 we established the Socrates Confucius
0:35
dialogue a couple of years ago when I spoke to Jeffrey Sachs
0:41
he asked me why Socrates it should be Aristotle so five years later
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we will do the Aristotle and Confucius dialogue
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so Confucius Moon and Aristotle Jeff sacks please join
1:03
Roger Cohen who will facilitate this dialogue and prevent us from this Clash
1:09
of civilization 
<<<<<<>>>>>>
welcome everybody to the Democracy Forum 10th edition
1:16
long enough looking at those images that we saw to see that a few years have
1:22
passed um I am very happy to see you all here
1:27
and rather remarkably I'm joined tonight by Aristotle on my left and Confucius on
1:38
my right uh I'm not sure what Socrates feels about his replacement by you Aristotle
1:46
maybe he'll tell us but in any event it's a great pleasure to have you both here on the stage
1:54
uh we're meeting at a difficult moment
1:59
um there's a war in Europe nuclear weapons the use of them is being
2:06
threatened our societies seem to have a great deal of difficulty determining what the truth
2:14
is some people speak of post-truth societies inflation is rising
2:21
soaring food and energy prices are rising rapidly
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and there's a great deal of disillusionment in our societies
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I'd like to turn first to you Aristotle what is to be done about these problemswhat should we do to try to make a better world.

Sachs: 
thank you very much for this wonderful opportunity I can tell you it's very
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easy for me to uh take this position because for 10
3:02
years I had the incredible honor to be special advisor
3:07
to Secretary General ban ki-moon and I always felt that I was advising Confucius uh I really always felt that I
3:15
was advising an extraordinarily wise man who understood
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the core of confucius's approach which was relationships
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because the Secretary General would always explain to me if I'm meeting my
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Chinese counterpart or my American counterpart or my counterpart from Germany what are these special
3:42
implications and feelings what are the proper rights in order to honor the
3:49
counterparts and by honoring those counterparts he accomplished remarkable
3:56
things the Secretary General in fact bringing us the two most important agreements of modern times the
4:04
sustainable development goals and the Paris climate agreement and those are
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agreements that reached 193 member countries
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to do that you need the wisdom of Confucius
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so what does Aristotle bring to this you may I
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(Host said that remind you you are Aristotle) and why do I sit as Aristotle and I suggested not
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as Socrates Socrates of course was declared by the Oracle at Delphi as the wisest person in
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the world he had great doubts about that so he spent his life asking people about what
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is a good life they could never give a coherent answer so he finally realized maybe I am the
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wisest person because I know I don't know the answers to these questions and that was his conclusion
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but my sense is that his philosophical grandchild from Eric Socrates to Plato
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and Plato to Aristotle did no important answers
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Aristotle gave us the two greatest books on this topic of
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human well-being ever written in the western tradition and they come together as a volume
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the first is the nicomachian ethics about personal Behavior
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and it is paired with the politics which is the invention of political science
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but not Machiavelli's political science Aristotle's political sciences politics
5:52
for the good for the human good politics based on ethics
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now Aristotle told us something of enduring value
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2 300 years of enduring value but I think in the Modern Age the first thing
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Aristotle would have done is to pick up the phone or send a WhatsApp to
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Confucius and say could you come over to the Athens Forum we need to talk
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and (Host siad that here you are here you are) because it seems to me like our theories while
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they're phrased differently are really similar because both of our theories put the essence of a good Society in virtue
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it's the virtue of the leaders it's the virtue of the citizens this is the core
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of Aristotle's political thought and confucius's political thought
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we lost it in the year 1514 when Machiavelli told us no it's not virtue
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it's how tricky you can be and then politics became managing power
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not cultivating virtue and well-being and I believe that we need Aristotle and
7:15
Confucius back again as our real guides not the study of power but the
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management of human well-being based on virtue because we've lost even the
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concept of this ladies and gentlemen of what is a virtuous life and before we
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hear from Confucius I want to say my favorite part about Confucius because it
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also exemplifies Secretary General ban ki-moon he said if we can come to appreciate and
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understand courtesy and music better there will be
7:53
no more war and I want to put underscoring on
7:59
courtesy because it's not even a concept in my country no courtesy we have the right to
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do this we do what we want Nancy Pelosi we fly to Taiwan because we can do that
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no courtesy if there's no courtesy there can be no peace
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there will only be War so Confucius has it exactly right we need courtesy thank
8:25
you.
(Host said that thank you very much Aristotle uh Confucius if I may turn to you and
8:32
please remember you are Confucius when you say I you are speaking as Confucius Confucius
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in an age where everybody can shout publicly through social media and
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there's so much noise and as Aristotle just said um a loss of a sense of politeness
8:54
respect courtesy um is it too much to ask that your
9:00
virtues the virtues you believe in be respected
9:07
潘基文
first of all it's a great honor to participate in this 10th things democracy forum for the first
9:15
time but last May I participated in the regional Forum in Seoul so this is my
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second time and thank you madam a present for your presence now thank you
9:30
Professor Jeffrey sucks for your very kind words around me in fact he was my
9:36
special advisor but I was his you know student in in fact when it comes to
9:44
Logics and teachings I hope that Confucius would not be angry
9:51
about me if I misinterpret what he had taught us
9:58
as an as a nation and Korean student from the very young age we have been
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taught what Confucius allowed to and many other Asian great thinkers and
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Scholars have been teaching us so I've been really trying to use that kind of
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wisdom during my time as Secretary General United Nations is composed of
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many tens of thousands of people who come from different different backgrounds now here what I'm going to
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tell you about the theme of this Athens democracy Forum
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the white democracy format this time organized by New York Times and why we are here
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because the most of the countries are going through very difficult times
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because of the lack of leadership of our
11:00
leaders who either elected or Kings or whatever positions that they may have
11:08
I have met the hundreds of world leaders present prime minister and
11:15
ministers but what I have found during my time unfortunately and this is
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exactly why I'm here I found that there is some
11:28
something missing in their leadership quality what is that
11:34
missing that's a global vision and global citizenship among so many
11:41
world leaders current and test it was very hard
11:46
to find genuinely Global leader with the global
11:51
citizenship that's why you may you should know that the first
11:57
thing I did after my retirement was to establish a pan given Center for
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Global Citizens in Vienna where one of the United Nations headquartered is
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located I really wanted to train and educate the succeeding
12:16
generations with some global citizenship then what does a global citizenship
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means if anybody is with global citizenship then I don't
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think we are now suffering from all these political conflicts and poverty and human rights abuses that is what I'm
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going to say now then what did Confucius said to us
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he said as a leadership quality the governance of once a governor I mean
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governing governing rule is followed by
12:59
the families governing covenants of the family then is followed by the
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governance of the state then if
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this means for example if you behave well
13:16
with Integrity in your family then you will be able
13:22
to govern the country then if you can govern the country peacefully then you can achieve the
13:30
world in peace this is what what Confucius taught us I really wanted
13:38
to follow his teachings 

（Host said thatask you a direct question Confucius remember you are Confucius what might President Putin learn from Reading you) 

President Putin yes if you read you you
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wrote these all these extraordinary things I met him I met him many times
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during my time but I was a deeply deeply
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disappointed by what he had done against the Ukrainian people his illegal
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aggression of Ukraine should be condemned
14:21
as strong as the possible tongues as a member of the elders
14:27
uh the private organization founded by Nelson Mandela composed of former heads
14:34
of state and government and Overlord I'm working as a vice chairman of these elders and we condemned his
14:44
aggression and we even urged the International Community to
14:51
establish a special tribunal criminal tribunal to make accountability on him I
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visited Ukraine on August 16th with former president of Colombia Juan Manuel
15:06
Santos who is a Nobel Nobel Laureate I was deeply deeply preconcerned and it
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was a horrendous atrocities atrocities which were
15:19
committed by Russian soldiers then at that time I was also very much
15:26
disappointed by the silence by many countries around the world
15:33
except a few except the American Europeans and some countries in Asia
15:40
like a Japan and South Korea that most of the countries all the countries in Africa Latin America Middle East I think
15:48
they've been keeping silence eyes I spoke out in this case of
15:56
aggression and then silence is not an option neutrality is not an option
16:04
the famous very respected Desmond Tutu attribution Desmond Tutu he once said
16:11
if you keep silence in the face of Injustice 10 means you are joining the side of
16:19
oppressor this is what I'm going to tell you
Host said that thank you
16:25
Aristotle if I may turn to you um you've you've journeyed through time and done extraordinary things
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um to get here you have in your writings uh the idea of the the golden mean the
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idea that balance um is essential to life um
16:46
moderation um Aristotle do you as you look around uh
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the world do you feel that we've we've lost that sense of balance that we just
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hurtle Helter Skelter from one thing to another and had lost this concept that can be an
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orienting compass in life)

Sachs:

 I think that the war and the
17:14
geopolitical crisis between the U.S and China is a
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reflection also of the loss of balance but not only in the way that it is
17:25
commonly understood I Aristotle
17:31
I guess uh yes was a I happen to be advisor to President Gorbachev and 
( Host said that it's extraordinary how did you how did you do that were you on)

 because when some kind of what you learned in someone's
17:44
greatest philosopher you could do all sorts of things uh and and the advisor to president Yeltsin and the advisor to
17:52
president kuchma uh in the first years of Ukrainian Independence so I saw
18:00
one crucial thing which was that at the end of the Cold War the United
18:06
States and Germany promised to the Soviet Union into Russia
18:13
if you disband the Warsaw Pact we will not extend NATO 
( Host said that you actually witnessed this Aristotle you are saying that you witnessed it's disputed by former secretary James Baker you name it it is you you saw you heard that you were in the room)
 if anybody if anybody would like to write to Aristotle's email address sax
18:38
columbia.edu I will send you to the archival files that show explicitly how
18:45
Hans Dietrich denture said explicitly we will not move an inch East
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and also how the Secretary General of NATO in the NATO meeting in 1990 said we will
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not move East at all so Aristotle you're blaming the current crisis on the west
19:05
breaking its promises I am blaming the current crisis on the lack of balance
19:11
and moderation absolutely because the idea that this is only one side is a
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myth this is a crisis that has been brewing for 30 years and every year
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Russia said please do not come closer to our borders please do not come closer to
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our borders please do not come closer to our borders that's the truth ladies and
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gentlemen and in 2008 nonetheless do you interrupt Aristotle well
19:43
sometimes I'm obliged to I'm I know you've come a long way you must be tired but I feel it's uh I feel I have to from
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time to time no Aristotle so the these broken
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promises they were uh they would not have been broken if the leaders had been
20:01
wise enough to consult you is that what you're saying we had very wise Statesmen Statesmen who
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followed confusion and Aristotelian thought like you think that you really
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think they're one and the same like George Cannon who said in 1997 NATO
20:20
expansion will lead to the next Cold War he said it immediately and we entered a
20:27
region of Crisis and being Aristotle I called the White House last year and I
20:34
said please stop the NATO enlargement because maybe we can still have peace but they're not philosophers they're
20:41
people of action and they were not interested in stopping any expansion
20:48
they declared three times in 2021 that Ukraine will be a member of NATO we
20:54
trapped Ukraine in the middle of this battle between these two giants it's an utter tragedy for Ukraine an utter
21:01
tragedy because if you have Aristotelian Prudence what the Greeks
21:08
call phronesis wisdom contextual wisdom if you have
21:14
Temperance moderation so frozeny in Greek
21:20
if you have the sense of justice style can dial
21:25
oh excuse my Greek
21:31
what is it thou kiss me yes if you have these virtues you know don't push the other
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side don't fly to Taiwan because we have the right to do so exercise Prudence
21:46
moderation sense of justice respect for the other side and then you won't have
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War this is what Confucius meant when he said if you come to understand and
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appreciate courtesy we will not have War courtesy please courtesy so Aristotle
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are you in despair [Applause]
22:12
Aristotle have you despair this Century we uh we're not yet
22:18
a quarter of the way through the century but Aristotle you seem to be writing us off because we've lost touch
22:25
with the most fundamental values that we need for a peaceful world that's a very
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pessimistic message from such a brilliant man Aristotle was not um
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I am not a pessimist because what I teach
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is that human beings have two sides they have the sides of selfishness and
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they have the sides of virtue but the goal is to cultivate virtue
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in Greece Greek excellence personal excellence
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political excellence and what we teach as philosophers is not
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that human beings are intrinsically good or intrinsically evil but they are
23:17
teachable that virtue can be cultivated exactly
23:22
what my colleague Confucius says that people can learn virtues
23:29
now I also know and I'll just say things it's every generation's
23:36
responsibility to keep working for virtue because it's never a
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done deal and the greatest philosophers my teacher Plato
23:48
was attempted three times to be an advisor to the governor of syracusa
23:57
he failed all three times it's hard to be a foreign advisor by the way
24:03
they don't listen to you even to my teacher Plato but it doesn't mean you can be
24:09
pessimistic it means we have to redouble our efforts at our own virtue
24:16
because by cultivating our own virtue we cultivate the response in others as well
24:23
that's the idea of courtesy thank you thank you very much so Confucius
24:30
um Confucius
24:36
um given what you said previously I imagine that hearing from
24:43
your distinguished fellow philosopher Aristotle that the West is
24:50
partially somewhat maybe largely to blame for
24:56
the war in Ukraine that seems to be quite a long way from what you were saying so Confucius
25:04
what do you feel about that
25:09
first of all what is conflict among the countries and between the countries
25:16
I'm deeply deeply worried and angry that even in this 21st century
25:24
now countries are trying to occupy by forces by force a certain territory this
25:32
is a totally unacceptable at the same time I am deeply concerned about the
25:38
weakening of multilateralism if a multilateralism has been supported and
25:43
strengthened the United Nations systems particularly Security Council
25:50
has been really up to the commitment
25:57
in the chart of the United Nations I think we should not so on the unnecessary suffer from all this
26:05
particular people from you know Ukraine and therefore
26:11
is I'm as a former Secretary General I'm very sorry that the United Nations has
26:19
not been able to discharge is a chart of provision Charter Duty
26:25
there should be some loud and clear
26:32
from the International Community that they should reform the security Council
26:38
during my time just a lot of such discussions and even French government
26:44
has offered voluntarily that they would be willing to refrain from exercising
26:52
fetal power when it comes to purely humanitarian issues like in the case of
26:58
Syria when a lot of people were suffering from this then
27:03
most of the member you know veto power they rejected this one that's where we
27:09
stopped therefore we should not repeat what we had been repeatedly making
27:15
failures this is what I'm urging again
27:21
we have to meet meet the demands of the international
27:26
committee there are many people who are suffering from Hunger abject poverty there are many people who are whose
27:33
human rights are abused by big powers and
27:40
some people with the powers this is something which we cannot you know
27:46
accept at this time thank you Confucius um I I imagine that I mean Aristotle was
27:52
talking about how top secret he's been advising Western leaders about various
27:58
things I imagine you uh as Confucius that you've probably been advising Xi
28:05
Jinping also about what he should do what have you been telling Xi Jinping
28:12
about the possibility of uh an invasion of Taiwan for example I
28:20
imagine that you've been urging him to show restraint I am deeply
28:26
disappointed by what Chinese and particularly India and some other
28:32
countries have taken positions uh the
28:38
loud another great Chinese scholar who
28:44
lived almost at the same time with the Confucius even he was born 20 years even before
28:52
Confucius many people know about Consciousness but not much no not much people know about
28:59
loud Sim he said in his teaching and
29:04
that the way the heaven is to or help
29:16
the way to Heaven is now let me see the way of
29:22
Heaven is to be beneficial to all all the things and the way of sage is
29:30
serving the people without competition without competing this means when it
29:39
comes to some disagreement then you have to really um
29:45
compromise with other people Professor sax mentioned about the China
29:50
and U.S relationship at this time without United States and China working
29:56
together it will be almost impossible to address all Global challenges not to
30:03
mention climate change but also all these Global Security issues and
30:09
therefore what I'm urging both leaders of course the significant difference in
30:16
political systems ideologies and the way they are doing but I think at this time
30:23
when you really want to address all these Global challenges we have to
30:29
join all our hands on the deck together both U.S and China must work together
30:35
otherwise it will be only the people it will be only the countries who will
30:42
suffer there are some some Scholars have suggested that I think they um
30:50
their relationship if they change the course of their work I think we can make
30:57
some progress thank you I can say there may be three capital C's
31:02
cooperation competition conflict but they began with the
31:09
conflict when you begin with the conflict then nothing can happen
31:15
let them cooperate thank you very much in transparent manner in the course of
31:22
this competition and cooperation there will be a way of a mutually
31:28
understanding better this is what Asian way of thinking can help resolve all
31:35
these problems thank you so much confused the final word from from you Aristotle and it needs to be too quick
31:43
I'm sorry I know it's been a big effort to get here but when you look at East West
31:49
relations um are you are you worried that your
31:56
Universal ideas are only understood in in part of the world do you think there is a fundamental
32:02
issue in East-West understanding I I literally think that the fact that
32:10
the core of Aristotelian virtues and confusion
32:15
virtues are so similar is the core basis for
32:20
hope there is a common Humanity that can cooperate together can work
32:28
together can build virtue together there is zero intrinsic reason for conflict
32:35
between the U.S and China the problem is actually a little bit of
32:42
uh U.S neurotic reaction to China's rise
32:47
China is viewed as a threat it should not be viewed as a threat China should be
32:54
viewed as a normal country trying to have a normal life in this planet it
33:00
just happens to have a lot of people in it and that makes it big but the idea that it is some threat that
33:07
must be combated is an unvirtuous idea because China and the United States and
33:14
the West can cooperate with each other and we have to cooperate with each other but Aristotle you see no difference
33:20
between American democracy and the Chinese surveillance state I think it's absolutely important to
33:27
understand something about my philosophy and please re-read the politics I will I
33:33
will I promise It's a Wonderful book and it says something there are three basic
33:40
forms of government by the one by the few and by the many but they each have a
33:45
good side and they each have a bad side the good side of the one is monarchy the
33:51
bad side of the one is tyranny the good side of the few is aristocracy the bad
33:58
side of the few is oligarchy the good side of the many is Republic
34:03
the bad side is uh is uh he called it
34:08
democracy by the way but just uh so you know it it is uh Mob rule
34:15
so we shouldn't saying the United States today is a state of mob rule did I
34:22
understand you correctly we have mob rule in the United States to a large extent you should be very clear we had a
34:27
mob attack our Capital led by the president of the United States that's mob rule that's pure populism that
34:35
worried Aristotle a lot when he wrote in 330 BC that we would have populists like
34:41
Donald Trump or Boris Johnson or many others but the attention was reposed and what in the
34:49
end nothing's in the end that's the whole point everything is a continuing
34:55
effort for the good and we are so far from achieving the good that we need to
35:00
achieve we need to do better but my point is the following we should not
35:06
judge simplistically another social system
35:12
even another political system by simplistic categories I never did as
35:18
philosopher I asked the question is this for the common good
35:23
one thing about China that I would like to emphasize China went from 80 percent
35:28
extreme poverty in 1980 to no extreme poverty 40 years later it is the most
35:36
successful economic development in history it learned a lot from Korea by
35:41
the way it learned a lot from Japan it learned a lot from the neighbors it's extraordinarily successful life
35:48
expectancy Rose enormously education Rose enormously quality of life Rose enormously hunger
35:55
fell completely this is an accomplishment we should take joy in
36:01
China's accomplishment not fear from it we should congratulate China for its
36:06
good works and we should sit down and understand each other because there is so much common interest but we don't
36:13
even talk to each other we point fingers we say they're on the other side of the Divide we don't want to talk
36:20
the first bit of wisdom to go back to Socrates is to talk and that's what we
36:26
need to do thank you very much Aristotle thank you Confucius thank you [Applause]
36:35
[Music]