得窥天境

    Following is the second half of chat text dialog I had with a Muslim. Initially, I had gotten out of the chat since it was going no where.  I didn't save it.  But he persisted so I continued. This Muslim who called himself "lil Muslim lil" (and "sober minded"), agreed to let me post this on my web site.  Since I had gotten out of the chat and lost the whole text, I asked him to send the whole thing to me so I could post it on CARM. He said he would. As yet, I have not received it.
     The Muslim typed in all caps. As usual, I have condensed the dialogue by combining repeated posts at the same individual into one paragraph. I changed his name from "lil Muslim lil" to just "Muslim."  Likewise, changed my name from "Matt Slick" to "Matt".  the Muslims name is in brown and mine is in green.  This helps it read more easily. Nothing has been altered in the full text of what I have can be found here so that it can be verified.  I don't want any Muslim accusing me of any deceit.
     Please notice that this Muslim would not answer my questions. I had already encountered him before and he refused to read even one article that I asked him to that answered his question.  Unfortunately, I have encountered many Muslims who are like this. And they prefer to ask all sorts of questions and refuse to answer any. Of course, this is rude and their continued demand of me and other Christians to answer their questions without answering any themselves, shows me that they are not interested in true dialogue. Instead, he appears to be interested only in raising objections to Christianity. Please notice that he tries to skirt the issues I raise by asking other questions. Also notice that I tried to answer all his questions, repeatedly. He was quite obviously, impolite and disrespectful. Following is the second half of the dialogue that originally dealt with Old Testament appearances of God.  I had referred him repeatedly to The Plurality study, but he refused to read it.  Instead, he demanded that I answer all his questions.  Also, I have corrected typos due to errors in my speech recognition program that I was using.  You'll find them in brackets [ ].

 

Muslim: MOSES SAW GOD! AND HE DID NOT DIE.  TEXT WILL BE SAVED! : )
Matt: Look.  I am trying to be patient with you but you are not listening.
Muslim: NOT LISTENING?  WE ARE NOT IN A VOICE ROOM, ARE WE?
Matt: Would you please stop playing games
Muslim: I AM NOT PLAYING ANY GAME
Matt: I've tried to tell you about what is called "theophanies"
Muslim: I HATE PLAYING GAMES WHEN IT IS ABOUT GOD.
Matt: They are the physical manifestation of God in the Old Testament
Muslim: OH
Matt: It does not mean that God has a body of flesh and bones
Muslim: OKAY
Matt: It means that God manifests himself in order for people to see him
Muslim: WHAT WE SEE
Matt: Jesus specifically says that no one has ever seen the Father John 6:46
Muslim: IN THE OLD TESTAMENT IS GOD...? LIKE THE ANGEL.
Matt: But they were seeing God in the Old Testament
Muslim: ???????????  ANSWER
Matt: Therefore, they were not seen [seeing] the Father, they were seeing the Son
Muslim: MY QUESTION
Matt: This demonstrates that Jesus is God in flesh
Muslim: EXCUSE ME
Matt: There is much written about this in Christian theology
Muslim: DO YOU MEAN THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD?
Matt: I suggest that you take time to study it.  And I also suggest that you stop playing games with me.
Muslim: EXCUSE ME AGAIN.  YOU SAID GOD, IN FLESH
Matt: I'm not interested in playing games.
Muslim: QUESTION: DOES THAT MEAN HE IS GOD THE FATHER?
Matt: See? This shows that you do not understand Christian theology.  We do not say that Jesus is God the Father
Muslim: I SURELY DON'T
Matt: Again, you demonstrate that you do not understand what the doctrine of the Trinity is
Muslim: THAT IS WHAT MAKES ME ASK QUESTIONS.  OH OH.  WAIT A SECOND.
Matt: You need to study it before you start asking so many questions and start playing games.  www.carm.org has lots of information on the Trinity and the incarnation.  It also has information on Islam
Muslim: JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE "NOT" ONE? WHAT DOES JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE ONE MEAN?  OH NO
Matt: Why don't you stick to one topic at a time instead of jumping all over the place?
Muslim: I DO NOT GO TO TOILET TO GET BREAD TOASTED.  WHAT DOES JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE ONE MEAN? <<<<<< ANSWER PLEASE.
Matt: In John 10:30 the context means that he is claiming to be equal to God (the Father)
Muslim: OH  SO  HE WAS "LYING"
Matt: The Pharisees did not believe that Jesus Christ was God in flesh. Let me ask you....
Muslim: CAUGHT LYING IN JOHN 10:30.  HMM..  NO WONDER HE FOLLOWED THE DEVIL IN MATTHEW 4. 
Matt: Do you believe that Jesus is God in flesh?
Muslim: ME?  DO I HAVE TO?  WHY SHOULD I?
Matt: I asked you a question.  I have been answering many of your questions and you have not answered mine.
Muslim: HE AND THE FATHER ARE NOT ONE!  AND HE LIED.  POOR.
Matt: Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God in flesh or not?
Muslim: NOT REALLY.  YOU HAVE BEEN POSTING LINKS.  I SAID HE AND THE FATHER ARE NOT ONE.
Matt: Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God in flesh or not?
Muslim: BESIDES HE WAS CAUGHT LYING IN JOHN 10:30.  GOD DOES NOT LIE AND HE IS NOT SEEN 1 TIMOTHY 6:16.
Matt: Are you saying that Jesus was a liar?  You are a Muslim calling the holy Prophet Jesus a liar?  Is this what Islam teaches you?  Are you saying that Jesus was a liar?  How dare you accuse the Prophet Jesus of lying
Muslim: ASK YOUR SELF MATT
Matt: Jesus never lied.  But you are saying he did.  I will have to keep this text.
Muslim: IS THE BIBLE THAT WAS WRITTEN BY PAUL, TELLING YOU THAT TRUTH?  BUT HE FOLLOWED SATAN.
Matt: You will not answer my questions. You avoid my questions.
Muslim: SURE THING.  WHAT DOES JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE ONE MEAN? <<<<<< ANSWER PLEASE.
Matt: Do you believe Jesus Christ is God in flesh or not?
Muslim: Matt: In John 10:30 the context means that he is claiming to be equal to God (the Father) HE WAS "LYING"  ?  CAUGHT LYING IN JOHN 10:30
Matt: I already answered you. It means that Jesus Christ is claiming equality with God (the Father). I have answered you again.  Yet, you will not answer me.
Muslim: NO.  I BELIEVE HE WAS A MAN
Matt: So, I ask you again, do you believe that Jesus Christ is God in flesh?
Muslim: ACTS 2:22.  I ASK YOU AGAIN, WHY SHOULD I?  HE WAS CAUGHT LYING IN JOHN 10:30.  ISN'T THAT ENOUGH?! TO MAKE YOU HATE JESUS?
Matt: So, you accuse Jesus of lying?
Muslim: BESIDES IN MATTHEW HE FOLLOWED THE SHAYTAAN
Matt: I would never accuse Jesus of being a liar. Why do you do that?
Muslim: AND ALSO, IN GAL 3:13 HE WAS MADE A
Matt: And why do not answer my questions? Are you afraid to answer me?
Muslim: HE WAS A CURSE!  WELL
Matt: "It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; he refused to be of those who bow down. 12 (Allah) said: "What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay." 13 (Allah) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)." 14 He said: "Give me respite till the day they are raised up." 15 (Allah) said: "Be thou amongst those who have respite." (Surah 7:11-15)
Muslim: THIS IS WHAT I NEED TO ASK YOU ABOUT
Matt: See how Allah obeyed Satan in the Quran
Muslim: WAS JESUS LYING? IN JOHN 10:30????????????????????????????????????????????????????? << ANSWER THAT  LOL
Matt: I have already answered you. I went to you again [grammar error of some sort]. Jesus was not lying.
Muslim: HE LET HIM TO AN APPOINTED TIME
Matt: Now I ask you again, do you believe that Jesus Christ is God in flesh or not?
Muslim: AND YES, HE SAID RABBII..............MY GOD!
Matt: Because I'm honest, I must ask you for permission to use this dialog on my web site. May I use it?
Muslim: HONEST?  YOU ARE SAYING JESUS WAS LYING IN JOHN 10:30
Matt: May I use it or not?  Are you afraid of it being published on my web site?
Muslim: LOL.  I HAVE YOU RECORDED AND NOT JUST THAT MATT
Matt: I am asking the question
Muslim: I HAVE SURPRISES FOR YOU.  DO IT.
Matt: Good.
Muslim: I'LL BE HAVING A SITE SOON.  IN SHA' ALLAH.  LISTEN MAN.
Matt: This is a great example of how a Muslim can play games, misrepresent the facts, avoid answering questions, and not be fair in his discussion.
Muslim: HOW ABOUT A PUBLIC DEBATE?!  ME AND YOU?  WE DO NOT PLAY GAMES
Matt: Oh yes, you are playing many games.
Muslim: WE DO NOT DRINK ALCOHOL AS MUCH AS CHRISTIANS.  SO MOST OF THE TIME, WE ARE SOBER MINDED PEOPLE
Matt: You will not answer my questions and you want to debate me?  With [will] you also avoid entry [answering] my questions in a debate?
Muslim: I ASKED YOU MAN
Matt: Is this how you do your debates? You play games and you don't answer questions?
Muslim: WAIT.  HERE
Matt: Why should I debate you in public if you will not even answer my questions in here?
Muslim: WAS JESUS LYING IN JOHN 10:30
Matt: I have tried to answer all of your questions, several times. Yet, you have not responded to my questions.
Muslim: BUT NOT THAT LAST ONE
Matt: For about the third or fourth time, I will answer the same question. Jesus was not lying in John 10:30
Muslim: OH OH
Matt: I have asked you this question and you have never answered it "Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God in flesh or not?"  Why would you not answer me a simple question?  What are you afraid of?  And why do you accuse Jesus of being a liar? 
Muslim: OK.  THAT IS CLEAR
Matt: I will accept your offer to debate, depending on the topic, and only [if] you answer my questions in here.
Muslim: LIKE A SUN IN THE MID OF THE SKY   QUESTION: WHAT DOES JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE ONE MEAN?
Matt: But since you do not answer my questions, you show me that you are not worthy as an opponent.
Muslim: WHAT IS YOUR QUESTIONS?
Matt: You demand but you do not show politeness and respect.
Muslim: QUESTION* RESPECT?  EXCUSE ME?  I HAVE IT RECORDED
Matt: You have been very rude to me.
Muslim: ME SAYING, MR................ Matt  
Matt: You have repeatedly ignored my questions.
Muslim: NOT REALLY
Matt: I have answered your questions. You have not answered mine.
Muslim: I ASK QUESTIONS NOT YOU, OR EVEN THE POPE OR YOUR FAVORITE PASTOR CAN ANSWER.  WHAT DOES JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE ONE MEAN?
Matt: You have repeatedly ignored my questions. I have been very polite and very fair with you.  Yet, you continue to ignore what I ask.
Muslim: THIS ONE QUESTION THAT YOU MISSED.  WHAT DOES JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE ONE MEAN?
Matt: Therefore, I cannot agree to debate you because you demonstrate that you are not worthy of a debate.
Muslim: OH MY *** [edited out since he used the Lord's name in vain].  YOU ARE WRITING THIS TO SHOW IT IN YER SITE.  NOT REALLY MATT.
Matt: I will publish this on my web site as an example of how you are unethical in your approach.
Muslim: YOU WILL HAVE TO ANSWER THE FOLLOWING QUESTION:  WHAT DOES JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE ONE MEAN?
Matt: You cannot be trusted to have a proper discussion.
Muslim: NO PROBLEM AND I WILL PUBLISH THE SOUND AS WELL.
Matt: For the fifth time, it means that Jesus is claiming equality with God (the Father).
Muslim: OH  CLAIMING EQUALITY............ OK
Matt: For the last time, "do you believe that Jesus Christ is God in flesh or not?"
Muslim: QUESTION THAT YOU MISSED: DOES THAT MEAN THAT JESUS IS GOD THE FATHER?
Matt: Know, it does not mean that Jesus is the father.
Muslim: OKAY  HOW DO YOU SAY THAT JESUS WAS GOD IN THE FLESH?  JESUS IS "GOD" IN THE FLESH?!  HOW IS THAT........
Matt: Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God in flesh or not
Muslim: EXPLAIN.  WAIT  LET ME QUOTE AGAIN WHAT I TYPES EARLIER.  SECONDS... NO.  I ASK YOU AGAIN, WHY SHOULD I?  HE WAS CAUGHT LYING IN JOHN 10:30.  ISN'T THAT ENOUGH?! TO MAKE YOU HATE JESUS?  AND ALSO, IN GAL 3:13 HE WAS MADE A CURSE!
Matt: If you deny that Jesus Christ is God in flesh, then you are like the Jewish leaders who also denied that he was God in flesh. You agree that he is not divine in nature like the Jews. You are like the Jews. You deny who Jesus really is.
Muslim: HE WAS NEVER GOD IN THE FLESH, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE
Matt: I will not talk with you anymore since you have proven to me that you're not an able opponent. Goodbye
Muslim: IF YOU ARE TRUTHFUL ABOUT HIM BEING GOD IN THE FLESH, THEN SHOW ME WHERE HE SAYS I AM GOD IN THE FLESH............... THIS IS MY FINAL QUESTION.........
Matt: can you send me all of the text? i lost the first half.
Muslim: SURE
Matt: carmstuff@yahoo.com
Muslim: YOU WILL HAVE IT ALL.  SURE THING.  ARE YOU GOING TO ANSWER MY FINAL QUESTION?
Matt: I will answer your final question only because I've requested the text and I'd needed in its entirety to be fair.
Muslim: I AM ASKING YOU TO BRING YOUR PROOF FROM THE BIBLE, HIM SAYING HE IS GOD IN THE FLESH, OR GOD DWELT IN HIM, IN HIS OWN WORDS.
Matt: Jesus claims divinity in John 8:24 and John 8:58. You must cross-reference these with Exodus 3:14
Muslim: OK
Matt: Let me post the verses for the record.  Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Muslim: JESUS DENIES DIVINITY IN MARK 10:17-18 AND LUKE 18:18-19.
Matt: John 8:24,M “I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.” (the word "he" is not in the original greek). John 8:58, " Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
Matt: Those of the verses were Jesus claims divinity.  You can call him a liar if you want.  But I believe him.
Muslim: WHY CALLST YOU ME GOOD? THERE IS NONE GOOD BUT GOD!
Matt: Was Jesus good?  now, you said it was your last question. Did you lie to me?   Is Lying okay? "Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him [Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf]?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it," (Hadith Vol. 5, Book 59, #369).
Muslim: MATTHRE 4 TELL US ALL WHAT WE NEED ON THIS POINT, ABOUT HIS "GOODNESS" AND THAT IS IN COMPARISON TO WHAT WE SEE IN JAMES 7
Matt: I await the full text in email. Otherwise, I will post this last half of which you're given me permission to post on my web site.
Matt: Goodbye.