Yangtze4300302010-02-05 10:34:05回复悄悄话
A few points/clarifications on previous comments:
1. Top colleges, especially HYPSMC, are definitely better if money is not a problem, period;
2. Money will NOT be a problem if admitted to HYPSMC and other top colleges. These colleges have large endowments and thus excellent need-based financial aid (FA). If you are rich, you can easily afford. If you are not rich, you get good FA. Either way, top college education will not break your bank. Money comes into mind only when you are relatively rich and can not get good FA from private colleges but get full ride merit-based scholarship from public colleges. You have to decide if you want to spend extra on a better college;
3. Cost of attendance in private colleges includes tuition (about $35,000/year), room and board (about $10.000+$5000=$15,000), travel (a couple of thousands) and book (a couple of thousands). For HYP, their FA are based on total cost (cost of attendance) so it DOES include room and board. Other private colleges can not afford this kind of FA so a lot of times their FA is much lower to the extend that FA is lower than tuition, which is why people think they do not include room and board;
4. Two years of community college will not waste time. Kids spend 2 years in community college and transfer to public college. The total is still 4 years. But, you know the quality of community colleges, don’t you?
5. ABCs are in a much tougher position to compete in this country. Do you have the resources and connections in this country comparing to the whites? You don’t. This is the major reason that Chinese parents want their kids in the better position in college education part to level the playing field;
6. Yes, if kids can get into top colleges, their parents do have something to brag about. But it’s NOT, at least not the main, reason they send their kids to the top colleges.
Depending on different people, American whites do brag about their kids, if their kids are doctors, lawyers, etc. Do you have any idea how many percent of Jews in HYP? A lot of there are paying full tuition;
7. The chances are for a large part of our middle class first generation immigrants, top college education is cheaper than public schools if we do not take consideration of full ride in the public schools. For some wealthier families, top colleges may be more expensive but they can easily afford. So it’s a MUTE question if anybody can afford or not.
8. For extra cost of top colleges, we have to think in long term. Top college students have many more opportunities in job market, graduate school application, etc.
9. There is an opinion in planning on under and graduate education to save money: go to a cheap public college and apply top university for graduate studies. I never buy it. First, if you graduate from a top public college or a less elite private college, you do have chance to get into a top graduate program but the chance is NOT going to be the same as those who graduate from Ivies. If you graduate from a third class public school, you can just image your chance of getting into top graduate programs. Also, when people talk about alumni, a lot of universities are talking about undergraduate education rather than graduate education. For some colleges, graduate students are not really in the circle.
10. I know a Northwestern faculty member who said to his 3 boys: If you can not get into the top five college then just stay at Northwestern since he has benefit as a faculty member. It turns out all of his 3 boys graduate from Northwestern. I never imply that Northwestern is not a good school. I do think it’s a great school and I like it a lot. It will be foolish if they do not go to Northwestern but to other top colleges other than top 5 and pay a lot of tuition expenses.
jstray2010-02-05 06:13:32回复悄悄话
东北老蔫儿 说得不错。如上几个顶尖大学并不会让你破产。都是根据家长收入 适量收费的。我女儿高中毕业前我就跟她讲好，父母的财力只能供你上州立大学。如你能拿到足够奖学金，天下大学任你去，否至就去州立大学。她拿到普林斯顿大学的录取单。根据收入， 我们所要求付的反而低于州立大学的费用。现在她马上要大学毕业了，我们也没有感到 have made a big dent in the bank.
天上下着毛毛雨2010-02-05 05:23:07回复悄悄话
In a faculty party a few weeks ago, the only "non-faculty" (家属除外）the manager of the program in a top ten hospital told me her story: My parents were only able to affort my elder brother to go to Harvard and had no money left for me to go to Duke, where I had been accepted. That's my life-time pain. I am sure I will have a better career if I went to Duke. I told my girls: Just work hard and excel in your academy. I will let you girls go where ever you can go. （All nine faculties in this program were graduated from the top schools in the states, both undergraduate and postgraduate shcoools.)
Another story: a friend graduated from a MBA program in Stanford U., took a job in a firm as a manager, with 20, 000-30,000 higher starting salary than those from less top schools. "Why? No fair."My friend said his colleague were upset, "But what else they can do? I am in the club, but they are not."
Of course, I am talking about those kids with academic ambitions.
If it is talking about "gaining face" for either the parents or their kids, I would say: forget about it. Use those money for something else, e.g. enjoy a better quality of life, NOW.
ncpga2010-02-04 22:02:41回复悄悄话
this is even worth of writing an article?
realbke2010-02-04 20:55:42回复悄悄话
简而言之，中国的教育是英才教育. 受教育是为了出人头第. 日本的教育是全民教育. 美国的教育是选择性教育. 第一代移民的选择只不过反映了他们的教育背景.
It is not that Americans do not want to go to very good schools. They generally would like to choose the best school they can afford to go. There are some Americans around me they all studied in some college I never heard of. 1. These colleges offered them athletic scholarships. 2. Ivy League Schools have no Athletic scholarships. Their sports are crappy. 3. They tend to choose colleges with a decent major they want to study not only the name of the school. However, they all studied in very decent graduated schools with top leveled education related to their major.
lxc202010-02-04 20:47:21回复悄悄话
回复胜因院的评论:
EE major. It was a hard decision I guess; decided to take Ivy in the morning and changed it in the afternoon. He is now a junior. Looking back, not a bad decison - doing well from a learning standpoint and very happy and confident, planning to go to a top graduate school.
胜因院2010-02-04 20:14:33回复悄悄话
I think 真妮 may not know the whole story. Most 长春藤名校 have very good $ to support students. I know few kids went 哈大, 普大, 家里 only pay 10% of 学费. 家庭年入 over 200K, only 15K (t+r+b) a year, not a big deal.
I think most people in the 文学城 are 1st generation. If we ask our self, how many friends do you have, who are they? 80 - 90% are Chinese, right? To send your kids to 藤校, you help him/her to create a network of people which is his/her classmates. This kind network
老外朋友 already have it. I know a boy has been accept by a 藤校, and 州大给了他四年全奖, and CMU. For all 老外朋友 who has the kid at 10th - 12th grad, tell him go to 藤校. There is one 老外朋友 tell him go to CMU because CMU program is best for him.
summer1232010-02-04 19:49:35回复悄悄话
Another example is why so many American families spend tons of dollars from private preschool to high school on their kids.
Give some advice to kids is also important. If you let your kids decide their future at age of 18, they got to be prepared very well. Kid of our friend got 4-year full president scholarship from a top liberal college 8 years ago and she decided to go to Duke against parents' suggestion and sby pending parent's tens of thousand dollars. Kid told parents that it is for kid's own future. Total opposite case you present here.
东北老蔫儿2010-02-04 19:37:05回复悄悄话
耶鲁是“need blinded admission, need based financial aid”。根据家长收入和负债情况决定是否给财务补贴。其原则是不能因为孩子上耶鲁导致家长生活水平的下降。当然这是指的基本生活水平。因此，只要孩子能被录取，家里经济不会更宽松，但也不会更紧张。藤校多数如此。如果我没记错的话，家庭收入8万刀以下，上耶鲁哈佛几乎是免费。然后财务补贴根据家庭收入上涨递减。好像到14-5万以上就要自己全出了。
summer1232010-02-04 19:29:57回复悄悄话
To my knowledge from our friends around, graduates from elite are relatively easier to find a first job in current job market (in 2008,2009 ans 2010).
summer1232010-02-04 19:23:45回复悄悄话
Go to top ten colleges is all about establishing a good network for kid's future. Asian kids are definitely at some disadvantage naturally to compete the tough job markets. But graduating from top ten will give kids a better change to find a good job and have better life. Also graduating from elite colleges will give kids a better chance to get in professional graduate schools such as medical, law, business, etc. All hope is to get some good return in the near or medium future for 4-year college investment. It is so obvious if you just see short term investment return. As chinese parents like our parent and grandparent generations, we never expect investment return from our kids.
cncjcc2010-02-04 08:20:40回复悄悄话
我先ding,再讨论。这的确是个难题，当我6-7年后要面对时，我想我会用一个准则，那就是凡事都要有个balance. 也许是自私点，但是我不愿倾家荡产就为孩子可以上个长春藤名校。像文章里的那么好的州立学校还全额奖学金，我会让女儿慎重考虑，但尊重支持她的选择。如果真的要去长春藤名校，她也必须帮助她自己，包括贷款打工。You have to live with your decision, right?
您真是累了,红的白的不能一起来。 但您跑题了.
那么法学院和医学院的博士算不算博士？
如果算，那么原帖就不是事实。我只是指出原帖说得不确实而已，不知道不对在什么地方？
...........我还真了不起，试着读你的一篇评论。你累不累啊。在人家字里行间找汉字粘啊贴的。
有很多事要靠运气。本人还有一个朋友女儿在北京刚读高二，想到洛杉矶退一年读高一，将来可进一个好学校，比如加州伯克利分校。谁知洛杉矶公立高中以种种理由不收。于是，有朋友出了一个点子，直接上二年制社区学院，将来再转学。二年以后，她顺利转入加州伯克利分校三年级，如愿以偿。
1. Top colleges, especially HYPSMC, are definitely better if money is not a problem, period;
2. Money will NOT be a problem if admitted to HYPSMC and other top colleges. These colleges have large endowments and thus excellent need-based financial aid (FA). If you are rich, you can easily afford. If you are not rich, you get good FA. Either way, top college education will not break your bank. Money comes into mind only when you are relatively rich and can not get good FA from private colleges but get full ride merit-based scholarship from public colleges. You have to decide if you want to spend extra on a better college;
3. Cost of attendance in private colleges includes tuition (about $35,000/year), room and board (about $10.000+$5000=$15,000), travel (a couple of thousands) and book (a couple of thousands). For HYP, their FA are based on total cost (cost of attendance) so it DOES include room and board. Other private colleges can not afford this kind of FA so a lot of times their FA is much lower to the extend that FA is lower than tuition, which is why people think they do not include room and board;
4. Two years of community college will not waste time. Kids spend 2 years in community college and transfer to public college. The total is still 4 years. But, you know the quality of community colleges, don’t you?
5. ABCs are in a much tougher position to compete in this country. Do you have the resources and connections in this country comparing to the whites? You don’t. This is the major reason that Chinese parents want their kids in the better position in college education part to level the playing field;
6. Yes, if kids can get into top colleges, their parents do have something to brag about. But it’s NOT, at least not the main, reason they send their kids to the top colleges.
Depending on different people, American whites do brag about their kids, if their kids are doctors, lawyers, etc. Do you have any idea how many percent of Jews in HYP? A lot of there are paying full tuition;
7. The chances are for a large part of our middle class first generation immigrants, top college education is cheaper than public schools if we do not take consideration of full ride in the public schools. For some wealthier families, top colleges may be more expensive but they can easily afford. So it’s a MUTE question if anybody can afford or not.
8. For extra cost of top colleges, we have to think in long term. Top college students have many more opportunities in job market, graduate school application, etc.
9. There is an opinion in planning on under and graduate education to save money: go to a cheap public college and apply top university for graduate studies. I never buy it. First, if you graduate from a top public college or a less elite private college, you do have chance to get into a top graduate program but the chance is NOT going to be the same as those who graduate from Ivies. If you graduate from a third class public school, you can just image your chance of getting into top graduate programs. Also, when people talk about alumni, a lot of universities are talking about undergraduate education rather than graduate education. For some colleges, graduate students are not really in the circle.
10. I know a Northwestern faculty member who said to his 3 boys: If you can not get into the top five college then just stay at Northwestern since he has benefit as a faculty member. It turns out all of his 3 boys graduate from Northwestern. I never imply that Northwestern is not a good school. I do think it’s a great school and I like it a lot. It will be foolish if they do not go to Northwestern but to other top colleges other than top 5 and pay a lot of tuition expenses.
至于need-based云云，如果家庭收入不上不下，那去藤校和拿州立全奖的区别确实会有20万之巨。我当年是这么跟孩子说的，爹妈给你准备的教育基金是不超过15万，你可以大学用，也可以用来读研究院，或者作为创业的启动基金，甚至买房子的首付。。。你自己决定。我家孩子受我的影响，志向不怎么远大，所以。。。嘿嘿，老公也怪我没push孩子爬藤。我问他是为孩子前途还是为自己面子，他很诚实的回答：都有。我说了：从经济角度看不值，不过我主要是要让孩子自己学会权衡利弊做决定。我家孩子最后选择大城市，因为她研究后认为现在location 的好处很明显，可以见世面，多实习。。。
很多人到社区大学读的是四年制大学承认的课程，修完了就转到四年制大学去，并没有浪费什么时间。虽然我的孩子是直接到四年制大学的，但是他们有不少同学是社区大学-->UC,一样毕业，现在已经毕业，就业和直接上四年制大学没有什么明显不同。
至于“另外本科毕业后如果读博士，好学校一般都是提供全奖的”，这更不知是从何说起，这是您的经验吗？
哥伦比亚法学院算好的学校吗？我就知道很多读JD的没有一分钱的奖学金。
你的评论提供了很多信息，谢谢。
我觉得你对美国孩子的独立判断可能过去强调了一些。在没有拿到admission 之前，谁就能肯定自己一定能拿到好的州立大学的全奖？难道就不能同时也试一把藤校，作为alternative ？ 等结果出来再作取舍？
另外本科毕业后如果读博士，好学校一般都是提供全奖的，费用的问题比读本科小的多的多。
这里有个机会成本的问题。 如果直接读大学，早毕业两年就是早工作两年，无论从收入还是从工作经验上都要比去社区大学所得更多。
Another story: a friend graduated from a MBA program in Stanford U., took a job in a firm as a manager, with 20, 000-30,000 higher starting salary than those from less top schools. "Why? No fair."My friend said his colleague were upset, "But what else they can do? I am in the club, but they are not."
Of course, I am talking about those kids with academic ambitions.
If it is talking about "gaining face" for either the parents or their kids, I would say: forget about it. Use those money for something else, e.g. enjoy a better quality of life, NOW.
既然这个学生有能力进harvard， 那末他（她）进州立大学肯定是１００％。
要知道，州立大学的学费的州内学费不到州外学费的５０％，而州立大学的学费又是不到Ｈａｒｖａｒｄ的５０％．因此，这样算来，即使这个学生没有获得该州立大学的全额奖学金。如果读该州立大学的话，也只需付不到１／４的Ｈａｒｖａｒｄ学费即不到＄５００００。因此，即使没有州立大学的奖学金，读州立也比上Ｈａｒｖａｒｄ至少省十五万美元！这样的话，按他们的选择最后仍然会读州立大学。还是回归到原来的疑问？既然他们并不看重学校的好坏，更多的是看那一个更省钱，他们明明早就能知道，即使没有州立大学的奖学金，如果读该州立大学比上Ｈａｒｖａｒｄ也能省十五万美元！为什么还要花大量的时间，花金钱申请Ｈａｒｖａｒｄ。
不用说美国的当地人，就连新近移民的外国人，都知道，美国常青藤大学学费比州立大学贵很多。
“儿子考虑了一番最后决定去州立大学，他觉得虽然哈佛相对人文环境好一些，但是为此多花二十万美金、自己背上十万元的贷款不值得，大学毕业后自己如果想继续深造可以那时候再申请到顶尖学校去。这个孩子很喜欢搞发明创造，搞的小发明还得过奖，他打算把父母给他的这笔学费当做创业基金，在大学里就开始创业。”
显然上面的这段有作者明显的加工的成分。
既然现在那么在乎学费的高低，“难道大学毕业后自己如果想继续深造可以那时候再申请到顶尖学校去。”就没有学费的高低问题了？
“儿子考虑了一番最后决定去州立大学，他觉得虽然哈佛相对人文环境好一些，” 难道仅仅是“人文环境好一些”么？
人人都知道名校的毕业生不仅有极高的就业率，高薪，而且还有非常强大的校友网。如果美国人真的像这个特例一样，不在乎学校的优劣。何来常青藤，何来名校和非名校。
这种例子，不可信。即使有，也是极个别，不能代表一般。
一上观点纯属个人之之见。
It is not that Americans do not want to go to very good schools. They generally would like to choose the best school they can afford to go. There are some Americans around me they all studied in some college I never heard of. 1. These colleges offered them athletic scholarships. 2. Ivy League Schools have no Athletic scholarships. Their sports are crappy. 3. They tend to choose colleges with a decent major they want to study not only the name of the school. However, they all studied in very decent graduated schools with top leveled education related to their major.
EE major. It was a hard decision I guess; decided to take Ivy in the morning and changed it in the afternoon. He is now a junior. Looking back, not a bad decison - doing well from a learning standpoint and very happy and confident, planning to go to a top graduate school.
有很多公司在乎学校的名字。名校就是不一样。
Could you tell me the reason? What is his/her major in the 藤校 and in 州大?
谢谢真妮的好议题. 我还有几年的时间去认知, 思考和抉择.
I think most people in the 文学城 are 1st generation. If we ask our self, how many friends do you have, who are they? 80 - 90% are Chinese, right? To send your kids to 藤校, you help him/her to create a network of people which is his/her classmates. This kind network
老外朋友 already have it. I know a boy has been accept by a 藤校, and 州大给了他四年全奖, and CMU. For all 老外朋友 who has the kid at 10th - 12th grad, tell him go to 藤校. There is one 老外朋友 tell him go to CMU because CMU program is best for him.
All is about kids future.
waiver of all tuition (35k),not on board and food (about rest 15K).
本酋长的同事，一些受过良好教育的美国中年人，包括了白人和黑人，很清楚：不在乎你上不上大学，而在乎你上什么学校。所以他们也尽量鼓励并在财力上支持子女上名校。在GA，Emory或Duke是为首选。孩子还在中小学时，周末也上各种才艺班。当然他们不像华人父母一样逼着孩子上才艺班或该死的中文学校。
Give some advice to kids is also important. If you let your kids decide their future at age of 18, they got to be prepared very well. Kid of our friend got 4-year full president scholarship from a top liberal college 8 years ago and she decided to go to Duke against parents' suggestion and sby pending parent's tens of thousand dollars. Kid told parents that it is for kid's own future. Total opposite case you present here.
让孩子自己选择是对的。但没有必要把上藤校说的要倾家荡产。另外，上好学校的就业机会比差的学校要多得多。除非是顶尖的公立。
读社区大学怎见得是浪费了时间？
美国人则没有这个假定，他们周围有着各色各样的人。名校毕业和事业成功不一定相等，而实际效果才是他们更重视的。
美国人的做法有其可取之处，相对比较务实，并给孩子以充分选择权，而不是大包大揽替孩子做决定。
相反，面子在中国家长心目中的权重比较高。想想我们小时候，读书在很大程度上也是为了父母挣面子。不然他们在和同事亲戚聊天时好像都抬不起头来。谁家孩子要是成绩好，上个重点中学，他们家长那个得意啊，嘴上谦虚，心里都美出花儿来了。
当然美国家长也多少有这个倾向，但程度比中国家长要轻很多，炫耀的考量相对小一些，也不以成绩作为孩子优秀与否的唯一标准。
个人不是很赞成这样的做法：不管孩子的意见，倾囊而出也要去最有名的学校。除非孩子本人非常想去，不然，哪怕上了名校，如果孩子自己不努力，不珍惜，抱着"反正花父母的钱"的心态，也未必就能成才。
不过老外有些做法我觉得也有些过。比如文中那个中产的家庭让孩子去念社区学校。既然自己有这个能力，学费也非天文数字，何必让孩子浪费两年时间？ 实在不行就算借给小孩让他慢慢打工还钱也行。
总之 ， 在择校时候，多尊重孩子自己的意愿，从经济与思想上帮助支持他，而不是从自己的面子出发，大包大揽。这样也许是在长远上对孩子最有益的方法。
我觉得区别就在于你说的那句，“我们在为儿女未来做打算时……”，老外是让孩子自己为未来做打算。
同意这个。