我给名为“该不该回国”网友的帖子
（１）男人其实都不喜欢离婚。
如果可以，谁不想象皇帝那样，搞个后宫三千，离什么离？多累啊。喜欢谁就宠谁，多去她那小馆，不喜欢就让她在冷宫里吃斋念佛，自生自灭。
“红旗不倒，彩旗飘飘”是现代精英简化版本的“帝王”理想。
（２）男人为什么才会离婚？
情人逼婚，他玩儿火玩儿大了，被套牢了。国内的女孩子要是“上”，那就是有目的的。否则放着同龄帅哥儿不理，谁跟你个黄脸衰男罗嗦。
“该不该”的老公喜欢国内那一套，他在美国有很好的工作和新房子，他还真是放下了“高薪，洋房”哭着喊着回国的。而他在国内最喜欢的又是什么呢？是“喝酒交朋友玩”，这就对了。这种年龄的男人一块出去还能玩出什么别的名堂？没人捧着哪里来人上人的感觉？
男人想离婚还有可能是老婆太厉害太没趣儿，面目可憎，让他生不如死了。有些中年妇女特罗嗦平庸，除了孩子工作一点别的兴趣都没有，我跟她们在一起１０分钟不到都烦得逃跑。
（３）离婚的坏处
那人要是没良心躲在国内，下堂妻带着孩子可是一分钱也收不到了。
鉴于这个前提，要是他很想离，“该不该”就得对他狠一点，能多争取的利益都别松口。
（４）离婚的好处
旧的不去，新的不来。
总之，“该不该”要有破釜沉舟的决心，回去就赶快回，不要考虑那么多瓶瓶罐罐，别耗着；要留就死心踏地地留下，那边天塌下来，也别让他坏了心情，以不变对万变。
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“该不该回国”网友的原帖:
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| | | | | 我在大概一年前发过帖子，请各位网络朋友了解我们的现状，帮帮我出出主义。他已经回国一年半了。现在又到了我们作决定的时候了。
我们在美十年，儿子一年级，女儿今年9月上kingdgarden.老公在我的坚决反对下还是回国。我在一个大学工作， 做着鸡肋一样的工作，收入一般。看样子老公2-3年是不会回美国了。他现在每年可以回美国4次。儿女很喜欢美国。儿子现在钢琴，游泳，滑冰都挺好。每天可高兴。我现在拿不定主义，今年年暑假后，全家都回中国，还是维持现状?维持现状的话，我很辛苦，心里和身体都很疲惫，如果都回去的话，怕对小孩有影响。即使回去，我也计划回去3-4年，等小孩小学毕业后，回美国上初中，毕竟他们要在美国读大学。就担心这样换环境，对小孩有影响。请朋友们给我建议!!!!!多谢!
我家情况是我先生极力回国，在我的再三阻拦下仍然回去了，扔下我们母女三人在美国。小的5岁，大的7岁。我全职工作10years，种种原因，现在搞的我焦头烂额，非常影响我们的感情。我现在都非常恨他。恨他的不负责任。我在美国申请公民，公民马上就下来。问题是现在我是身心疲惫，我害怕耽误两个小孩的前途。是跟他离婚还能怎么办? 我都不知道怎么办好。请各位兄弟姐妹帮我出出主意。
我们前几天通话时他透露出孩子还是在美国好，他2-3个月回来一次。暑假我和孩子回国，这样我们全年在一起的时间也有5个月。还说我们回去的话，他要分心，不能更全心投入到他的事业中。但我不同意。他说你不同意就算了。其实他回去半年了，在这半年前，他都买好机票要回去看看，在机票前一天晚上我对他说，如果你回去，丢掉现在这么好的工作，我没法和你过了。他就没回去，机票作废。第二天，自己一人在家痛哭，觉得自己的事业，前程被我和孩子困住，心里很不甘心，想回国创一番大事的野心成了泡影。后来在朋友的劝说下（我们所有的朋友都说他不应该回），他也想开了。但国内的人又和他联系上，说让他回去看看，如果不喜欢就回来，这样我暑假前脚回国，他后脚也回去了，回去之后他就不想回来了，在国内又和我商量，我还是坚决反对， 包括我的家人。但他家人整天想他回去，都想粘他的光。但他主意已定，自己说，舍不得孩子套不住狼，这样他就把我们舍掉，回去自己创去了。我们结婚整十一年，头5年他读书，我工作（我是国内的博士，来美国就工作），我办绿卡等，他一切事情都听我的，但最近3，4年，他工作后，和我的意见分歧的比较多，我们两地分居，周末我带孩子到他那里（我们在他工作地买了房子，想我以后要到他那里的）。对他回国这件事，我心里始终不同意，其实已经严重影响了我对他的感情。我想即使我们全家都回去后，遇到不开心的事情，我都要怪到他的头上。其实我心里最担心的是3-4年后，他还是不想回美国的话，我拿他是一点办法都没有的。那时我年纪也大了，回美也不好找工作，我实在是怕耽误孩子的身心和前程。我真是很矛盾。唉！遇到这样的老公。。。
very appreciate for XDJM's idea. Right now my husband think at his age (39 year), it is the only chance that he can get to develep his career. He has a decent job in America, but he doesn't like. He likes social, drink alcohol, make more friends, don't like america's boring life, and just as a senior engineer. So he decided to "xi sheng" short family's life to gain his longer happy life. And ask me to stay in america for one year to get citizen for after 5 years, we will back to america, let my kids go to middle school. You know it is hard for me to take care of 2 kids with full time job. I didn't expect it is so difficult. In america, we live apart around 70 miles, and I take care of 2 kids, and we bought a house nearby his job because I think I will move within one year, and every weekend I will take my 2 kids driving to our house. He doesn't like and always angry to me that I don't move. right now, he went away. I always ask him what is your happy life? kids without father? wife without husband? and recently I met a lot of trouble: car, personl, job, kids's day care... all these trouble made me crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!
I like live america and my kids like too. He doesn't like USA when he come. He came to usa for his phD, just earn money in recent 4 years, and I work here since I came, and easily and quickly to get GC.We also have a new big house. if we moved back to china, we will sell our new furnitures and whole staff in house which is just 2 years old. will lose a lot of money. That is what I don't like.and feeling is not good, but if don't move, it is hard for me...............that's why I I need your suggestion. Thank you guys again!!!!! |
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中国人该不该把骆家辉当成自家人 文章来源: 欧联时报 于 2009-03-28
这个标题对骆家辉是不公平的!
"中国人该不该把骆家辉当成自家人？"的措词有大问题!
1) 骆是现任美国的一个部长,当然要尽忠职守.
2) 因为奥巴马是黑人,骆家辉才有机会上去,他的心中可能想到"我们做的会比你们老白好!"
3) 骆家辉在成长的过程中,受了不少歧视,现在算争了口气.即使几年前还有人给他恐吓信...
4) 骆家辉部长是为很有中华民族感的人,他在竞选州长时就大声地说"有华人血统的骄傲!"
这与其他的华裔政客们都畏畏缩缩的尽量与"华"分开,是大不相同地!
5) 骆家辉是自家人? 当然是! 他像是中国嫁出去的闺女,希望中国人不要幻想"她"是专门
拿东西回娘家的"内贼".
6) 通过骆家辉或许可以使美国改善对中国的关系和印象,美国国内有这么多反中的昏人,
绝非奥巴马和骆家辉所能完全左右的!
7) 看看这些英国种的,犹太种的美国有权有势有财人物,他们对英国,对以色列太多方便了!
8) 希望中国人不要幻想!不着实际地幻想是危险的!
9) 骆家辉的路途是艰巨的,压力各方来,但他是明事理的,我们必须支持他!!!
也许，是我心态不对？还是这里一些人心态有问题？"(来源: CCC512 )
男人这样解释：“all men do it including your husband . u just do know abt it :- )cats all eat fish. if one of them does not, then it is not a cat any more . period ! :-) "(by cp3)
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多谢！ 你说的很对。我自己也是这么安慰自己的。我灌了那么多水，是希望“该不该”小妹及其她JM们能有一个较满意的结局。
Really can feel your pain and your despair.
To be confess, I used to a lost soul like your husband!
As you can see, my husband is a very responsible man who love me more than himself. He take all house-keeping, cooking, and driving me to school, that I am still a big child without responsibility.
But God is fair, when he give you something precious, he will also bring away something equally previous!
I always want a child, but my husband do not want. Do you know why, because he said taking care of you is already too much, if we have a child, I know it is also me will take care of child, that is too much! Then I ask when we can have a child, he said untill you grow up and become share house-work with me and let me feel relax.
That I know it is true and God let me to grow up and being a responsible mom then we will have a child.
My dear 雪花漂飘,
Don't lost your faith! Your husband is just like a child who need to grow up and learn to be responsible! He is a lost soul who also suffers!
He is suffering from let his family pain; he is suffering when he see other man surrounded by his family; he is suffering when his secret lover asked for marriage but he can not give. He is suffering when he realized maybe both his career and his family will both leave him away in the future...
Everyone know what is right in her/his deep heart! That is why he do not want to divorce, because he know in this world only you and your kids are his family and will be waiting for his return.
He know he is a sinner and a lost soul, but right now he is driven by his desire, which he can not overcome by disciple and sacrifice!
Damage already made for you and your kids! And I understand you have a gentle sweet heart both for your kids and your husband. In this way, I really hope God can give your faith and strength to hold on until your husband grow up and take his responsibility or untill you find your new sweet love!
"不是我瞎编的, Scientific 杂志上看到, 男人表达喜怒哀乐的能力普遍比女人差. 因为他们脑后的一部分大脑细胞不如女人发达. 当然什么事都有例外! 也就是说, 男人在很多感情表达的情形下词不达意! 女人不是多变, 是女人更能够表达感情. 男人不大能表达清楚他们想说出来的东西, in terms of their emotions! It does take more patience to communicate with men for us as smart women!"
Sorry, I do not understand this so well. And I even patintly communicated with Wiserman. Of course, Isaid something rude. But finally he understood what I said.
From all my friends and relatives around, they think I am the person who are very patient. Maybe the problem it is too patient, my husband does not care me.
Any way, your husband is looking for the school for your kids. I think the relatively good (not the worst ones, some schools even in USA are really too bad, kids are easily affected by other people), not the best (too hard to get it in) is ok for the kids
Thank you. And I think your husband is quite resposible man. I agree with his suggestions. You are lucky wife.
1. Stick together: my husband is not willing as he thinks he will need spend some times on us(me and children) liking finding a school for children at least at the begining.
2. Divorce: he also is not willing as he thinks he can back at any time while he gets problems in China, we are his backup, and of course, better social system in this country.
So that is why I am so angry while I saw this in the original article"我们前几天通话时他透露出孩子还是在美国好，他2-3个月回来一次。暑假我和孩子回国，这样我们全年在一起的时间也有5个月。还说我们回去的话，他要分心，不能更全心投入到他的事业中。". This is just exact the same like our husbands said. And I am afraid that "该不该回国" will be end up the same situation like us: separate many years (>25 years) until retired.
Still I would say again life is still going on. However, it is really too suffering to wives, husbands are too selfish, wives like us are just very unlucky.Nothing else.
"雪花, 你应该尽快回去守住你的他的!". Thanks. And to myslef. Of course it is possible always to back to China if I want. However, I feel so meaningless to back to China if my huaband thinks it is not necessary to get the family united.
And from his altitude of dealing family issue, he is not so resposible to me. I will be in quite embrassed situation if I had some difficulty like huge sickness etc. Therefore, you know USA and European contries have quite better social system, the system will take care of me if some problem happens.
I said above that does not mean i only think myslef security. First, what do you feel? If you husband say to you that he does not want take more trouble while you back to China. You feel that you are the extra trouble to him. Of course, it is not so necessary to back to China. No matter how hard the life is, if husband says he needs you, let's us together, and face the hard life, no problem, just back.
Of course, like "windcat" said, just divorce, I suggested divorcing,but denied by my husband, and of course, my children still feel a whole family even sometime father goes away. From children's point, it is better to keep marriage.So the final result is that mother suffering, of course, children also suffering somehow while father is not together. Only husband gets the all benefits as he wishes.
请妳出专集,登到国内的报纸上,叫更多的人看到更广阔的视野.
妳就功德无量啦!
我看了一下，我们这个帖子的跟贴有“196”！！这么高的楼！大家都是hao样的，我们在讨论中共同成长了。感激大家。
有话的同学请继续，我还在班上很忙，但我对大家的发言都仔细读了，佩服！！！
我有一位主任,女性/DIRECTOR,洋人/,离婚后,就到非洲去服务了三年,会美后再见面是,她说"This is my most rewarding work in my life."
很多洋人的心胸是宽广的.他们比较不会像很多中国人一样去钻牛角尖.
Someone may see you have problem in your brain.
我们老中有个坏毛病,对真实的好话,听不进去!
我的话,不是为你说的;能听进去的,必然获益!
...学甲古文...
既然世上几乎没有100%完美的婚姻,那么双方就必须努力学习如何适应(从本身做起,互相尊重对方,互相容忍,互相体贴,给予对方空间...),一般情况都会有好结果;若还是不行,你们就得做决定了!人生就是如此,不要"人比人"!该认的就认了!...世界到处都有有趣的事情做,到非洲去慈善服务,去爬山,学新东西...世界是我们的,尤其是现代的中国人,要准备做世界级的公民!
啊弥托佛!啊们!老天爷保佑!
引:"这种讨论不会有结果的.因为生活本来就没有标准答案,即使是大多数人走的路,也不一定就是合适你的."
===
全同意.
I usually advice the troubled spouses to stay together, but later I have found they might not be the real soul mates.... And 90+% of the spouses in the world are not perfect match.
Is that simple!
这种讨论不会有结果的.因为生活本来就没有标准答案,即使是大多数人走的路,也不一定就是合适你的.
1) both have good point: "Sitck together forever, otherwise break it and find new love!!! " & "你如果一个劲的和老公分析这分析那...尽力不要帮你自己的倒忙! "
2) There are many qualified women in China are "waiting" for your Husbands...
3) I also see some cases the other way around. The husbands want to stay in US and the wivies want to go back to China. Well, that's life!
There is no such rule to force people to live a certain spot, also no such rule to say that you have to stay with this person for life. People come together become they have common ground. Now, the ground is not common any more, just go ti find a greener pasture!
住在那里这么重要吗?
夫妻是谁规定的不能"退休"?
每一个人的情况,需要都不同,为何不能自创一格? BE YOURSELF!
4) 讨论了这么久,还在原地踏步踏?!
I asked my husband about how to deal with long-term seperation, answer is simple with power: stick together no matter how hard. Other wise, divorce, then you go to china!
This I believe is the best solution for whole family!
I remember when my mom strongly against our marriage, we stick together and life well until my mom admit my husband and love him years later;
We stick together when I am a student and my husband took all kinds of under-table labor jobs (he can find high-pay in other city);
We stick together when my husband pursure his study and I quit my degree in order to company him;
We still stick together when both of us have high pay and lived in one of most beautiful city in North American.
But if I decied to move on for my carreer to another city, my husband will quit and move together.
Stick together is the most beautiful things with power and love and both learn to sacrifice. The results are always warm your heart!!!
Don't find various excuse, I saw many of my good girl-friends suffer huge for seperation. It is very against human-nature, and it broken your faith and your heart!
Sitck together forever, otherwise break it and find new love!!!
Your ths advice is correct, most of us thought this way while husband left for China.
However as I said, some husbands just want themself easilier.They may arrange the family united in China, but they just do not want to do it as more work needed, for instance, arrange the school for children, and family house, wife's control some how.
On the other hand, they do not want divorce, just let wife alnoe in USA for many years, until retired. They enjoy the life in China as long as China is going well, and coming back to USA someday if any problem. And They may find some girlfriend to solve sex problem in China if they want, but how can a mother do that in USA with the children? I do not mean short period, I mean over 25 years in separation state.
This is why many of us are so upset. I guess that your husband is not that kind of man, he will find a way of arrange the unification. So you do not worry it.
人说海归有5关: 资金关,家庭关,文化关, 市场关, 管理关.
你如果一个劲的和老公分析这分析那, 你是间接的帮他度过这些关卡. 帮他在中国站稳. 这其实也是你不想得到的结果! 所以尽力不要帮你自己的倒忙! 给你和他一点时间!
我觉得你其实很不想放弃他. 也没有到放弃他的时候.
不要逼他. 等你把儿子养大, 会懂得男人多一些.
至于怎样解决聚少离多的状况, 你得再看看.
保持你自己的独立, 钱和人格. 过你的日子.
他如果做成了,呆下去了, 你再打算也不晚.
"你不会一年一年等下去。", This is really good wish for the wives.
However, like I said, we (I and 4 friends) have waited for 7 yeasrs, husbands still insist separation, no promise, no plan to arrange the united.
Anybody starts commenting me, please answer my this question?
"他若是那种想抛弃你的人，你就是硬把他留下来，他也不会尽责任与你同甘共苦。你也不要逼着他回来，他若不是笨蛋，会尽量证明自己是对的想办法在中国留下来。男人都这德性。所以你要等还要忍！
"
If we can 等 husband in 27 years in the separation state, of course, there is no need of discussing here.
Like I said, many wives still tolerate the separation caused by husbands in order to keep the whole family for children even no hope of united before retired.
Children grow bigger, usually after 10 years old, it is quite hard to back to China if not attend the International schools, but it is not easy for many family to pay IS as it is quite expensive.
And considering of fee and many problems from moving, husband choose easier way to let wives to saty in USA or European countries. Then at least no united before children start university. Even after chindren starting univeristy, then for amny wives, it is not easy to get a job in China, and considering the pension etc., then still separation.
If the marrage still is kept, it is already some how happy end. But many of husband may find a new wife in China in this long term separation. And wives are having high pressure in whole life, and isn't it too rucial for wives?
"你不像是个为性结婚的人，也决不会为性离婚。一辈子的缘分和性趣，不差这几年！到是要好好待你自己，想办法找人帮帮你。孩子毕竟要精心照看的。"
I think the wife usually think the same as you do. However, there are several husbands in my place just declared that they are very happy in China, no plan to return to this country, and wife just stay in this country permantly with the children, and they can back to this country if something bad in china happens, or he got the big trouble, no plan to arrnage the children and wives to back to China.This mean separation will last until the retirement, family may unite after 20 years + 7 years passed, 27 years separation in whole life. How many years we can live?
If husband tell wife, hi,Lao Po, just wait me for several years, either I will return to USA, either I will arrange you back to China to get family unitfication. Few wives will not be angry.
The real problem is: husband just stays in China with their happy life, no plan to arrange the family unitification.
My statement about sex life is all based on the long-term separation, like 27 years. Do you still think it is not important?
And I know many wives still tolerate even no hope to get the family united in order to give children a whole family.
We are not enough good?
你不像是个为性结婚的人，也决不会为性离婚。一辈子的缘分和性趣，不差这几年！到是要好好待你自己，想办法找人帮帮你。孩子毕竟要精心照看的。
Do nothing and stay where you are for at least one more year!
You can go visit school while you are in China but try not to take your kids and don't let him know you are considering going back to China IF you still want him to be back to the US!
我其实很理解你今天的处境。我是折腾过了，有一点心得也希望给你一点启发。你因该是个能干的人。有事情总是想办法一个人解决。其实你这一次要听听他的！他让你先不要回去，其实是想告诉你他还很想回来。起码他没有下决心在那里呆下去或不知道能不能呆下去。回去的前3年，很多不定因素，他随时有在是不够。可能坚持不下去。所以你要等，要忍！你今年至少不要搬回去！一年实在是不够。
不打不相识!
好也!
因为妳不是版主,我就没把妳的话拿出来一条条纠正,今天来算一下账,哈哈!
如:A.妳还没看请我的话,就武断地说我把错推倒一方.
B. 我说"清官难断家务事”===是说出我们都是局外人,决不是为我自己辩护
C. "...去适应的!＂与"岂不是一劳永逸地解决世界上的所有的问题！"===是不同的事情,妳怎么把它们混在一起?
D. "他给的建议多大而化之很笼统， 让你看完了也很糊涂"===是因为妳的逻辑观程度不够.
E. "理想和情操是怎么定义"===妳能定义吗? 告诉妳,我有.
F. “理想和情操”跟“留在美国”对立起来的。" ===这是妳自己编的!妳没看请我的话!
G. "他也觉得“培养内在品质”是跟“想性的问题”对立的， 鼓励人家向尼姑和尚看齐，"=== 真不知道妳在乱说什么,断章取义,篡改原意.
H. "...中国女性与洋妞也不同...显得他在这方面很有钻研和心得， 这就有点让人搞不清楚他的“内在品质”是怎么回事了。===有这方面的认识是件好事,我当时就被当地白人女同学称为"All American Guy!的"
I. "他潜意识里还是在搞男尊女卑那一套， 女性要处处宽容忍让..."=== 胡言乱语了!和我的人生观都不同!
J. "...虽然他只谈了自己的数量能力还没谈到质量能力..."=== 这不是对自己的描述!妳为何如此敏感???
K. "他的typo...(简单英文)都不知道...quite a unique person”，提问是用 Is 打头还是 Does 打头都搞不清楚I"=== 这写东西我们初中都学过了,一下子用个"AN",又如何? 妳能懂就好,
我还写了不少,其他的还有错吗?现在我们比一下英文如何?担保把妳杀的片甲不留.
L. "以后拿道德经压人"=== 我本身是很讲道德的人.
M. "就撒娇耍赖"=== 这是不跟女生斗争用的.
N. "不客气， 为避免你连马经都抬出来， 我本来是不打算说了。既然你要问， 我就说说我的看法"=== 我本来是问版主的,妳抢着回答是不对的.
O. 对妳的评论:喜欢故作姿态,会一点英文,脑筋逻辑ALL ＭＥＳＳＥＤ ＵＰ！，又会冤枉别人，过分自负．．．
Thank you, Wiserman for being a good sport, too!
没空跟你说了。 你要记得不要对人对己双重标准。对弱势凶狠得很， 被人家抓住就撒娇耍赖是不成的。 另外以后拿道德经压人时， 避免造这种句子：“你如何如何......, 就必然如何如何......"。 人家会以为你连第一章都没读过。吹牛的时候， 要吹得象真的， 经历不要编得让人疑心...（好了， 礼物送太多了）
最后， 雪花是个好样儿的！祝愿你最后家庭幸福，人生圆满。 所有经历就当是人生财富一笔吧。 Take care. 再次谢谢小叶。
引:"我们正常的夫妻要求总麽和尼克松，克林顿有什么关系？"
===
因为一般大众把总统当成"role model(模范)",总统言行能影响社会风气,社会风气关系到婚姻观念.
就是这个关系.
1. 引simply_leaf:"...评你也接触接触他们的思维方式嘛"
===
我是特意开导不同的想法和观点,高兴妳提到这个.很想听听妳的意见.
2. 引绯:"一个糊涂可笑， 自以为是， 强势恐怖且不尊重女性的中国老式男性代表。再加一点， 一知半解， 好为人师"
===
妳又在欺负人了...妳说的不见得准(都对!),还是要多谢了.
我的思想非常先进,我是主张男女平等的人...很多人听我的话都受益不少,包括:冲突解决,家庭纠纷,子女教育,公司事务,男女恋爱,社区服务...成功的实例很多.所以妳的话我不能信.请不要迷惑我.哈哈哈...
你现在做得很好， 我支持你。
什么典型？ 就是一个糊涂可笑， 自以为是， 强势恐怖且不尊重女性的中国老式男性代表。再加一点， 一知半解， 好为人师。
只有一点我同意你， 那就是谢谢小叶子啦！
引:"...很有典型性..."
===
请解释一下好吗? 什么样的典型? 先谢谢啦.
雪儿妹妹一定年轻，其实老聪很有典型性，他人也直，又爱说，你也接触接触他们的思维方式嘛。
引:"...谢谢我的指正吗， 怎么就变成欺负..."
===
对!妳(们)讲的都对!
我这个谢谢是包括"谢谢妳的欺负"的.
又,买花旗(C)的股票会赚的!现在大概是$2.90左右++++++++++++
咦， 你不是刚刚谢谢我的指正吗， 怎么就变成欺负你了？：）
引:"...丈夫强迫要求妻子分居留在美国是对妻子的不人道..."
===
对!
不多谈,谢谢各位;赶快买股票吧,银行股还会涨...还有专门欺负我的红人"绯".都很好,大家热闹一番,宴席讲散,人去楼空.赶场嗷!
欢迎写信到我文学城会员通讯来,好像有什么俏俏话之类的沟通管道.
我们正常的夫妻要求总麽和尼克松，克林顿有什么关系？
引,"...丈夫要求妻子牺牲自己的性权利（3个月才见一面）是不人道的。 这才是长期分居的最大的牺牲。既然小孩在那生长对不错，丈夫不应该要求妻子留在美国给他做保障。太自私， 不人道。"
===
1) 197X几年,我在美国中部,和老邻居谈家常,那时的美国人,绝大部分都是诚实,善良,诚信的;他们忆及往事,是有一些人不愿离开自己的家乡,到远处工作,几个月回家一次,而那写老太太们,没有一个抱怨的!那时他们都实行体罚教育,处罚小孩也是很严的...那是美国的黄金时代,可惜你们大多数没看到,自从尼克森的水门事件后就糟糕了,又来了个强生越战,克灵顿的鹿纹四季事件...
2) 每人机遇不同,性格有异,Simply_leaf 已经得到足够的知识了.
3) 再说三遍: 清官难断家务事!
清官难断家务事!
清官难断家务事!
4) 希望各位在对话中,学到些东西.人一定要不停的学习,提高自己的素质.我是得到了更多的见闻.谢谢喽,
Old dog learn new tricks.
你不是说夫妻分居不重要吗？还有别的意思吗？
再读一遍：
我也说过，老公回国是可以理解的。“该不该回国”不要强迫她老公回美国，那样老公也是不幸福的。
但“该不该回国”的彷徨是正常的。我们首先要理解她，让她心里好受点。
我的主要观点是：她老公不应该要求她留在美国。丈夫们最差也应该说：妻子愿意在美国坚持，自己想法多来美国团聚。妻子如不愿意在美国坚持，想法安排孩子会中国上学，老婆工作。真不应该要求妻子呆在国外给他做保障。太自私， 不人道。
正如偶然路过的人说的：
保重好身体, 照顾好孩子, 发展好事业, 真的想回国就回, 不想回呢, 就在美国过. 少争吵, 两个人在一起一天, 就尽量善待对方, 也减少对孩子的影响. 当然如果碰到更合适的人, 就重新选择, 没有必要为了这样的老公耽误自己的幸福.
我还加一条：让老公自己决定留在中国或回美国。不要强迫他。如同我们不想别人强迫你一样。
引"Simply_leaf： 能否请你封掉Wiserman的发言？我觉得他像一条疯狗一样乱咬。"
===
太过分了!
我们来回写了这么多,我是出自好意,有知识的直言,妳不识好坏,还在骂人,天良何在? 像一条B疯I狗T C H.
你去看看我写的， 我一直是说丈夫强迫要求妻子分居留在美国是对妻子的不人道。我没有批评丈夫不能回国，也没有说必须回国。
引"...是你说的，丈夫不再时，妻子要的独自一人做爱..."
===
不要冤枉好人!我不是这样说的.请再回去看请我的用字,是严密的.
我说的独立是指独立生活的能力.
"独立生活的能力"不是鼓励人去独立生活,
"独立生活的能力"是说要具有这种能力,需要是可以用!两者大不相同!
引:"How I say you, I don't want to speak with you anymore."
===
I feel the same. Thanks.
你说：“女人一定要有独立的能力!(不是雪花说的独自一人做爱什么的!)”
你搞清楚的。
我的前提是丈夫要求回国，而妻子留在美国，分居3个月才见面， 正常的性爱无法满足。而且很多年，是不人道的。
是你说的，丈夫不再时，妻子要独立的独自一人做爱。
per:"...(visiting schools at the new location) my son and daughter don't like. So we went back to...
===
小孩子都喜欢与"老"朋友在一起的.
我朋友的孩子们就是不要从风城支加哥搬到南加州.短短的几天看学校,没有实质的意义!
也许,从国内到美国对一些人(大人,小孩)有点吸引力,那是受到"到美国的幻觉"误导的影响.
per:"...(visiting schools at the new location) my son and daughter don't like. So we went back to...
===
It is not ONLY happens in China-US relocation. It is true in every place. My friend relocated from Chicago to Irvine, CA years ago. Thier high school children just wanted to stay in Chicago. They don't care about the sunny S. California, they just wanted to stay with their old friends. .... A quick school visit will not do much to the children's mind.
引:"...I am over independent...not danosour either. Have good enough EQ. ...such a kind of husband..."
===
Don't get me wrong!
My "independability" focuses on the ability to make a living. It is nothing to do with the sex activities.
引:"...逻辑思辩能力有问题。 他说的话前后矛盾..."
===
妳的这些批评很有意思,我常常写错字是真的(我有点受康德,KANT,的影响,他的文笔文法是错误百出,近代的马似鹿MASLOW,文句也很差,但是,他们的思想是超一流),谢谢指正!
但是,我整个的话是绝对有一直性的!逻辑上没有问题!
妳提出的,只要妳能从大处着眼,就知道我的话是连贯性.
妳满满想想九领会到了.
you should go visit all types of schools in China if you have some plans to go back.
I have met kids go to international, local and local school international devision. Don't worry about how much of the costs yet, find out about all your options.
首先妳和我应该感谢版主Simply_leaf,允许我们如此多的对话.
我能建议的是:妳可以从不同的角度看事情,也不能把妳的习惯传统观念当成永远不变的真理(读一下老子的道德经:...非常道...),学习充实自己,...增加妳的灵活性和深度感,妳必然能够成为一位品质高贵的中国(女)人.
不可以改别人的话!
这是基本人格!
你在胡言乱语,改我的话!不可以!罪大恶极!
你的话是:"...就说老婆要支持. 当老婆要实现梦想的时候, 就说你的梦想不是梦想, 而是祸国殃民的根源."
而我的原文是:"...当然,若是丈夫没有梦想,而妻子有,那么丈夫就应该帮助妻子去实现她的梦想."
一字不差!
2) 我是极力维护女权的人;
首先:女人一定要有独立的能力!(不是雪花说的独自一人做爱什么的!)是指性格的自立性和谋生的能力而言!
我儿子数学应该是比较advance. English is so so. Science is behind. He came back to take all honored and AP classes and did fine. He is getting good SAT but not perfect so I thinks it did affect him! Personality-wise, He is doing great! No more nerd. He is going to be captain for his high school debate team at senior year. Forget to mention, I have a daughter who is 5 years younger. Did not affect her too much academically. But she learned to buy name brand stuff from staying Shanghai for 3 years. Good and bad.
I found the hardest is finding English books to read for them. We used to bring lots of books to China every summer when we came to the US! No 我老公还在中国 most of the time for the year. He wants to come back but not easy. After all man (and woman) has to take his responsibility seriously.
小孩从国内回来英文没什么问题。国内英文教育抓得很紧。 但是小孩从美国回国中文才是大问题。如果要回去就尽快回去， 对小孩好些。
如果做得到成龙那样也算最终能修成正果了， 就怕很多自以为是的男性们是“小姐的心， 丫头的命”。 那就苦了家人了。
似乎这种爱折腾的男性大多是苦出身的凤凰男， 对出人头地有强烈的渴望，达不到目的的话他们会一直折腾下去直至绝望为止，：）， 不给折腾的话， 会过得很黯淡沮丧， 怨恨老婆的程度绝对不会低。：）
我觉得那些“心胸宽广”啊“别坚持一个观点”啊之类的话， 也可以说给这类男性听听。：）
儿子上高中前回到美国. 幸好找到和走前类似的工作, 否则不知道日子该怎么过. 人人都知道夫妻分别久了,家庭中各种问题都会很难解决.这中间包括你和他的无法分享的困惑和压力. 我现在的想法是一切随缘! 我会经常在电话里complain (罗嗦平庸!). 想法说出来了感觉好些. Give it some time and give it some patience, enjoy your life as much as you can! Good luck.
Why do you guess so? “interesting reading, difference between man and woman are so obvious here. I am guessing 雪花漂飘 must be young and beautiful, not much hardship in life, and is enjoying the best of life now. ”
Removing the surface appearance, the deep reason here is the big conflict between culture hungry and financial stability.
Developing country like China provide huge culture rewards for man with decent education and rich opportunities. Amazing food, fresh young girls, tons of friends, flexible rules to play, and close to parents.
Can wives provide similar adventures and exciting in US- a well known culture desert?
Those husbands who have courage to leave their wives and kids for China is the man who love Chinese culture, love chaotic, love exciting, and love adventure. Typically they are not family-oriented man, and an ordinary family life can never satisfy their heart.
These husbands are not searching for results, not matter so much for successful or not, but they are eager for experience! A rich experience!
Can you really win their heart back? Very likely not!!!
Maybe you should learn to be like a wive of "Chen Long"-famous movie star. Let him enjoy the colorful cherish world, let him taste all kinds of women, and you still be an angle for your kids and for this big child. Then sometime at his 50s, he will appreciate your patient and love, and bring all money and respect to you as a old old man...
看来我是被题目'该不该离婚'误导了.
为我之前的不慎向当事人道歉.
对， 我也是觉得wiserman的逻辑思辩能力有问题。 他说的话前后矛盾， 往往把自己给绕进去了。比如他高调批判追求安逸， 但是力主回国是因为在美国更辛苦 ：）。结果不得不逃避问题不回答。 回答的问题又有驴唇不对马嘴的情况， 显得他的阅读理解能力也很成问题。
他一开始就在事情还没有完全弄清楚前就急躁冒进地对一方大打板子， 大力把责任放到一方头上， 后面却不得不对自己连说三遍“清官难断家务事”！ ：）
他的一个经典论点是：＂人的适应性很强,很强,很强...若是不能适应,那是妳自己告诉自己不去适应的!＂， 呵呵， 岂不是一劳永逸地解决世界上的所有的问题！：）
他给的建议多大而化之很笼统， 让你看完了也很糊涂。 比如他说“人生要有比较高的理想和情操”, 你不知道他这高理想和情操是怎么定义的， 又是如何放在家庭生活环境里来树立和协调的， 但你知道他是把“理想和情操”跟“留在美国”对立起来的。：）
他也觉得“培养内在品质”是跟“想性的问题”对立的， 鼓励人家向尼姑和尚看齐，清心寡欲来获得敬重。但突然他冒出来一句“女人最好能知道一些吸引男人的诀窍....啊,这是一门大学问...中国女性与洋妞也不同,所以洋人的著作,需要适当的修正才好用...”， 显得他在这方面很有钻研和心得， 这就有点让人搞不清楚他的“内在品质”是怎么回事了。 ：）
他潜意识里还是在搞男尊女卑那一套， 女性要处处宽容忍让， 不考虑她们的实际情况。对自己，则很想树立个高大全的雄性形象， 性事是三个月一次可， 一天三次也可，“不强求别人的爱好,顺性而为,相配而合”。 虽然他只谈了自己的数量能力还没谈到质量能力， 但因为谈了这么一点性，就觉得自己是什么都敢说了。连英语也都敢说了。 你可以原谅他的typo，比如打出个 “youer”来， 但你发现他连自己是“quite an unique person”还是 “quite a unique person”都不知道， 提问是用 Is 打头还是 Does 打头都搞不清楚， 你就很怀疑他这进过八间大学， 修过不同科系的经历是怎么回事儿......他还暗指自己是当老师的，你这就很替那些个学生担心了……
你仔细读一下Wiserman的回贴和跟贴, 你就比较容易理解一些中国男人的思维方式.
当需要妻儿为老公牺牲的时候呢, 就和你说一家人不要计较付出. 当需要老公为妻儿牺牲的时候呢,就不和你说一家人不要计较付出了, 改成老婆要独立, 孩子要适应.
当老公要实现梦想的时候, 就说老婆要支持. 当老婆要实现梦想的时候, 就说你的梦想不是梦想, 而是祸国殃民的根源.
看见诀窍没有? 根本不是观点不同的问题, 而是怎样对自己有利就怎样说. 所以我劝你不用争吵, 他们是揣着明白装糊涂. 你能做的只是想办法尽量保护自己和孩子的利益.
回复雪花漂飘的评论:
引"...without any body at present? Funny? "
===
这表示还有其他问题存在.
抱歉,我要战时休兵.十个小时后再谈.
Becaue husband is in China, wife in USA. How can they make love? I mean this. Any 问题?
男女有共同性, 男人之间也有共同性,女人也有共同性;但是每人有每人的个性!
你与他/她相处就了解了,然后就可以找出相对的方法,方式.
女人最好能知道一些吸引男人的诀窍....啊,这是一门大学问...
中国女性与洋妞也不同,所以洋人的著作,需要适当的修正才好用...
Do you think it is because we are not attractive to husband? You changed the subject, husband leaves for so-called career because we are not attractive, so anyway, we are just blamed.
引"...without any body at present? Funny? "
===
这表示还有其他问题存在.
抱歉,我要战时休兵.十个小时后再谈.
1. I understand somebody doing it, ok, I am not balming anybody doing it. But husband requires wife to do it herself. This is just point: too selflish.
2. The problem is here: our right. freedom as wife is not guranted.
3. How to 合 even without any body at present? Funny?
4. we are very good, 两人有缘,相处很舒服,"性"趣自然而来., problem ,"性"趣 coming, solved by herself? Is this sacrficed because husband is away?
男女有共同性, 男人之间也有共同性,女人也有共同性;但是每人有每人的个性!
你与他/她相处就了解了,然后就可以找出相对的方法,方式.
女人最好能知道一些吸引男人的诀窍....啊,这是一门大学问...
中国女性与洋妞也不同,所以洋人的著作,需要适当的修正才好用...
How to 合 even without any body at present? Funny?
两人有缘,相处很舒服,"性"趣自然而来.
若是夫妻处处不合,就没趣了.
就是这么简单.
The problem is: it is not "若是夫妻处处不合,就没趣了". Just husband is not present at all. Our marrage is quite normal while husband is present.
per,"...Why he marry a woman?"
===
两人有缘,相处很舒服,"性"趣自然而来.
若是夫妻处处不合,就没趣了.
就是这么简单.
引:"...my freedom, you cannot require me to be 和尚,神父,修女,尼姑...没有性生活,照样活,像那位圣女德勒萨."
===
Youer freedom is honored!
I also honor these 和尚,神父,修女,尼姑s.
The problem is here: our right. freedom as wife is not guranted
"我不强求别人的爱好,顺性而为,相配而合.
世界上的趣事很多,不要太专著一件事上.OK?!
我是什么都敢讲,很多事都看过,进过八间大学,修不同的科系...所以...多言了.
我也有:传道,授业,解惑的使命.所以很喜欢与人交流."
I understand somebody doing it, ok, I am not balming anybody doing it. But husband requires wife to do it herself. This is just point: too selflish
===
Youer freedom is honored!
I also honor these 和尚,神父,修女,尼姑s.
When somebody, especially husband requires wife to be living like 修女,尼姑? Do you think it is funny? Why he marry a woman?
引,"...solve her sexy life by herself..."
===
我不强求别人的爱好,顺性而为,相配而合.
世界上的趣事很多,不要太专著一件事上.OK?!
我是什么都敢讲,很多事都看过,进过八间大学,修不同的科系...所以...多言了.
我也有:传道,授业,解惑的使命.所以很喜欢与人交流.
We are not think sex all day. We are natual human being. I do not want to be 和尚,神父,修女,尼姑...没有性生活,照样活,像那位圣女德勒萨. This is my freedom, you cannot require me to be 和尚,神父,修女,尼姑...没有性生活,照样活,像那位圣女德勒萨.
I am comparing my husband with any body, but it must be woman's nightmare to have a man like you as husband.
I mean my husband at least does know his duty as husband.
I just think you are not normal, so special. So it is not in the scope of our discussion. And I would not anwser your any question.
培养妳的内在品质非常重要,不要整天想性的问题.
和尚,神父,修女,尼姑...没有性生活,照样活,像那位圣女德勒萨,不是全世界都敬爱的人物吗?她是一年多前去世的.
So you require your wife solve her sexy life by herself? And she is satisfied with it?
per,"....At least my husband did not say this way, I think I really want to divorce ..."
===
Good, just suit yourself. If you can find someone matches with you so well, then you're really lucky.
Do not compare. We Chinese say,"人比人,气死人!"
It is really new for me to know: independent woman means that woman should solve sexy life herself without husband.
And I am not curious your sexy life at all, but just this question bothered women like us, nobody dares saying out. And I never know independent woman meaning to solve sexy life herself.
At least my husband did not say this way, I think I really want to divorce if my husband said this.
The problem is that I do not want to do it myslef. I think my husband has the duty to do this with me. Otherwise, I really cannot image why we need husband. Why we need marrage?
首先:女人一定要有独立的能力!...
I think that everyone of us here(woman) is independ from husband, but one thing cannot be done without husband, you know what.
我想你们之间还有不合的问题存在.这可能是最关键的问题.
善加处理为盼.
per, "...No sexy life in 3 months is ok for you?..."
===
I'm a quite an unique person. Actually, everyone is different. One love-making in three months is OK with me.
Three times per day is also OK with me. If no sex partner, I'll do it to myself if I feel there is a need.
Is that satisfy your curiosity?
I did not ask where, but when? Once a year like panda?
No sexy life in 3 months is ok for you? Do you feel happy withuot sexy life in 3 months?
once in 3 months is enough?
引,"真理掌握在少数人手里。"
===
100% 同意!
实在说,我是提供出不少观念,都是很有份量的.妳若能认识到,必然获益.我不必在此要人家服我,人都有学习过程!
per"...性权利。请回答我的问题？性也不重要吗..."
===
当然重要,性关系是夫妻间的重要成分.
但是这里的题目和在那里做爱关系不大,可以在内蒙的草原上,也可以在佛罗丽达的海滩上,或在北京雀巢的人见不到的角落里,都有不同的乐趣.
现在这里谈的是回不回国的问题.
等到他们家决定之后,他们应该知道在那里做爱.
[大概这里都是成年人]
我知道你会回回答，真理掌握在少数人手里。那你自己欣赏你的真理吧，我们不喜欢。
你看有一人同意你的观点吗？救你聪明？我早就说过，你不应该出现在这。
所以妻子保护自己的性权利。请回答我的问题？性也不重要吗？
现在丈夫不是为了生计回国，如果是，我们绝无半点怨言。如果不是，就应该考虑妻子的性权利。而且美国70年代人家分居是暂时的，短期的。不会几十年。
per,"...我看你才真没学到什么东西"
敬谢不敏!
引"...眼界狭窄, 安逸的生活也是很多人的梦想"
===
把安逸的生活当成理想的人,就失去了老天爷派你来到世界的使命了!中国的不振作和这种安逸思维有关...在弱肉强食的环境里,大概日本人先就不容你话下去!你看看印地安人都被灭种了!
老子的思想不是弱者的哲学!
我们思想不同,格调差别太大,你又会诬赖别人,
所以我把你列为拒绝谈话户!请走吧!
你没有回答我的问题！真希望你能从这个讨论中学到东西。我看你才真没学到什么东西。
引"...当老婆要实现梦想的时候, 就说你的梦想不是梦想, 而是祸国殃民的根源..."
===
你在胡言乱语,改我的话!不可以!罪大恶极!
我的原文是:"...当然,若是丈夫没有梦想,而妻子有,那么丈夫就应该帮助妻子去实现她的梦想."
一字不差!
2) 我是极力维护女权的人;
首先:女人一定要有独立的能力!...
引,"...丈夫要求妻子牺牲自己的性权利（3个月才见一面）是不人道的。 这才是长期分居的最大的牺牲。既然小孩在那生长对不错，丈夫不应该要求妻子留在美国给他做保障。太自私， 不人道。"
===
1) 197X几年,我在美国中部,和老邻居谈家常,那时的美国人,绝大部分都是诚实,善良,诚信的;他们忆及往事,是有一些人不愿离开自己的家乡,到远处工作,几个月回家一次,而那写老太太们,没有一个抱怨的!那时他们都实行体罚教育,处罚小孩也是很严的...那是美国的黄金时代,可惜你们大多数没看到,自从尼克森的水门事件后就糟糕了,又来了个强生越战,克灵顿的鹿纹四季事件...
2) 每人机遇不同,性格有异,Simply_leaf 已经得到足够的知识了.
3) 再说三遍: 清官难断家务事!
清官难断家务事!
清官难断家务事!
4) 希望各位在对话中,学到些东西.人一定要不停的学习,提高自己的素质.我是得到了更多的见闻.谢谢喽,
Old dog learn new tricks.
你仔细读一下Wiserman的回贴和跟贴, 你就比较容易理解一些中国男人的思维方式.
当需要妻儿为老公牺牲的时候呢, 就和你说一家人不要计较付出. 当需要老公为妻儿牺牲的时候呢,就不和你说一家人不要计较付出了, 改成老婆要独立, 孩子要适应.
当老公要实现梦想的时候, 就说老婆要支持. 当老婆要实现梦想的时候, 就说你的梦想不是梦想, 而是祸国殃民的根源.
看见诀窍没有? 根本不是观点不同的问题, 而是怎样对自己有利就怎样说. 所以我劝你不用争吵, 他们是揣着明白装糊涂. 你能做的只是想办法尽量保护自己和孩子的利益.
所以妻子保护自己的性权利。请回答我的问题？性也不重要吗？
引:"...孩子更重要..."
====
我怀疑这个说法有三十年了!我的反问是:"你自己的功能在那里?"
从苏格拉底,阿力士多得...康德,到沙特,罗素,没有一个西洋的明智人物,会说这种话!
做父母的中国人啊,你们在想什么???为了孩子...将来他们长大了,会听你的吗?会有成就吗?会...?????????????
未来不测,把握当今!别人不靠,要靠自己!
BYE!
我也说过，老公回国是可以理解的。“该不该回国”不要强迫她老公回美国，那样老公也是不幸福的。
但“该不该回国”的彷徨是正常的。我们首先要理解她，让她心里好受点。
我的主要观点是：她老公不应该要求她留在美国。丈夫们最差也应该说：妻子愿意在美国坚持，自己想法多来美国团聚。妻子如不愿意在美国坚持，想法安排孩子会中国上学，老婆工作。真不应该要求妻子呆在国外给他做保障。太自私， 不人道。
正如偶然路过的人说的：
保重好身体, 照顾好孩子, 发展好事业, 真的想回国就回, 不想回呢, 就在美国过. 少争吵, 两个人在一起一天, 就尽量善待对方, 也减少对孩子的影响. 当然如果碰到更合适的人, 就重新选择, 没有必要为了这样的老公耽误自己的幸福.
我还加一条：让老公自己决定留在中国或回美国。不要强迫他。如同我们不想别人强迫你一样。
引,"...我实际上是一个很AGGRESSIVE 的人..."
===
好像你是个没有 guts 的人,虽然你有你的想法,记住:"船到桥头自然直";一些美国(白人)朋友,他们小时候跟着父母全世界住,每地从一年到三年,直到高中才回美,有的就在侨居地读了当地的大学,现在与这些在美国拿到博士,硕士的中国留学生们,一起在美国大小公司做事,或创业,一点也不差,他们还做老板呢...还不就是这样吗?
在美国的中国人必须做的比别人好,加倍努力才行,机会不见得能拿到,当然像田长霖,骆家辉...的例子也有,那你就等吧...
若是在中国国内有好机会,最好不要放过,人生的好机会只有3,4个而已...(余下自己想)
还有什么高论吗？谢谢你的评论。你让我们明白极端自私糊涂的中国男人们还很多呢。如果你是男人，我们为你的妻子感到不幸;如果你是女人，你愿意那么做是你的自由，但愿你幸福。
per,"...安逸的生活也是很多人的梦想,追求这样的生活同样很有意..."
===
把安逸的生活当成理想的人,就失去了老天爷派你来到世界的使命了!中国的不振作和这种安逸思维有关...在弱肉强食的环境里,大概日本人先就不容你话下去!你看看印地安人都被灭种了!
老子的思想不是弱者的哲学!
男人很吃女人“温柔”那一套，跟他谈时，原则上别让步，但方式上要注意：要体贴，温柔，有理有利有节。Good luck.
同意你说的,这不正是我们的无奈吗
大胆讲一句挨砖的话, 其实能平等不自私地对待家人的中国男士是有一些的, 但是要讲比例的话, 比我知道的白人和墨西歌人少.
保重好身体, 照顾好孩子, 发展好事业, 真的想回国就回, 不想回呢, 就在美国过. 少争吵, 两个人在一起一天, 就尽量善待对方, 也减少对孩子的影响. 当然如果碰到更合适的人, 就重新选择, 没有必要为了这样的老公耽误自己的幸福.
可惜不是每个女人都有福气找到为对方,为家庭着想的丈夫的.自私的人处处都在
做人不要那么眼界狭窄, 安逸的生活也是很多人的梦想,追求这样的生活同样很有意义.
既然你认为夫妻双方都应该帮助对方实现梦想, 那么老公也应该考虑老婆希望在美国生活的梦想. 大家梦想不一样怎么办, 那就看看孩子的想法了.
正如你说的. 出现这个矛盾的关键是有些人不能平等地对待家庭成员,以自我为中心, 甚至认为别人要嫁鸡随鸡,这么任性和自私的想法怎么能要求其他家庭成员的支持呢?
既然是一家人, 就要顾及别人, 只要真的有能力, 哪里不能有一番事业呢? 但是为了一己之私, 伤了孩子和妻子的心, 不是一个有责任感的做法.
引:"...非生活所迫的情况下, 把孩子仍给老婆, 自己跑去追求梦想, 这不叫推托对妻儿的责任这叫什么?..."
===
古有明训,"清官难判家务事."
他们到底如何,你我都不清楚;一面之辞在心情不好时说出,有考证的必要...可能很多人也认为做妻子的,应该帮助丈夫去追求梦想,"嫁鸡随鸡,嫁狗随狗";
当然,若是丈夫没有梦想,而妻子有,那么丈夫就应该帮助妻子去实现她的梦想.
追求梦想比过安逸的生活有意义.
“该不该回国”的跟帖表现出了她为人的坦然和光明磊落。我就放心了。
说实话，今天象是回到了学校，大家那么又有理论又有实例，让我觉得受益匪浅。我们大家都希望“该不该”能顺利过了这道坎儿，找回自己的幸福。
生活有很多无奈,没有标准答案
对于四十岁左右的的女人来说,谁也没有天真到鼓励LG回国,来考验自己的婚姻,谁不知道现在国内的种种诱惑.谁不希望LG安分守己的留在北美,过一份安安静静的生活,但不是所有人都是那么幸运的.不是所有女人都有机会嫁给把老婆孩子,家庭放在首位的丈夫的.不要埋怨那些回流老婆,太空人老婆当年不听别人的劝告,最后自己吃苦头.道理人人皆知,但具体到家里这本经怎么念,只有当事人最清楚.婚姻在很大程度上是一种赌博,我外婆那辈人嫁给地主,资本家的时候是想不到会有后来的土改和公私合营,我母亲那一辈人结婚的时候,也想不到会有反右,文革.我们结婚的时候也不会想到出了国,还有海归一说,更想不到十年,二十年后中国的环境会变成这样.要知道当时谁有生活问题,谁就等于给自己的前途画句号.那些”弃妇”们也有过令人羡慕的婚姻.但社会在变,男人的心也会变, 这些都是自己无法控制的,但自己的生活,自己还是可以掌握的,只有自己自立,自信,才能以不变应万变,有可能的话,经济上独立是最重要的,如果自己暂时无法挣钱,那也要在离婚的时候为自己争取最大利益.精神上要有自己的社交圈,最好是那种跑到哪里都能找到”组织”的social group.与其整天为自己的命运叹息,还不如让自己活的精彩
在并非生活所迫的情况下, 把孩子仍给老婆, 自己跑去追求梦想, 这不叫推托对妻儿的责任这叫什么?对家庭的责任不是给点生活费就行了.
这不是女权主义, 这是一个人对于家庭起码的责任和付出. 如果当老婆也这么做, 把孩子仍给老公, 自己跑去追求梦想, 我也会谴责的.
这都什么人呀, 不说自己没本事让家人过的舒心,居然还好意思怪家人拖累自己事业.
我不明白的是既然人的适应能力非常强, 为什么做丈夫的不能在美国适应妻子孩子想要的生活, 而要妻子孩子都去适应他? 既然是一家人, 那么当然应该尊重这家人里大多数人的意见.
我不明白的是现在明明是做丈夫的因为一己只私, 有可能会伤害自己的孩子和妻子, 你却在对做妻子的诸多要求? 孩子是有眼睛的, 孩子是有脑子的,做丈夫的只要做到一个父亲和丈夫的责任, 孩子自有判断.
留不留在美国不是最重要的问题, 最重要的问题是当一个男人靠着妻子孩子辛苦支撑下, 有了一点成绩时, 居然为了追求自己的梦想, 牺牲家人想过的生活, 真的是很自私和忘恩负义.
做太太的要想的事是, 对一个比较自私的丈夫应该怎样最大限度的保护自己和孩子的利益, 和要不要持续婚姻的问题.
1) 我想,在这方面,妳快成专家了...
2) 人生要有比较高的理想和情操,千万不能把留在美国,当做妳的人生目的!
3) 在妳现在挣扎之中,请特别注意:不要在心理上,伤害/偏见妳的孩子们.推论下去就是:不要把妳对妳丈夫的不满,传到孩子们的心中.
4) 人的适应性很强,很强,很强...若是不能适应,那是妳自己告诉自己不去适应的!
5) 我想妳已经决定如何做了,妳的资料也收集的差不多了.
不愿多言,好自为之!
per,"Wiserman: You are really too wise. You should not be in this forum..."
Thanks for your comments. I am liable to every word I wrote! Any other question?
我感到非常荣幸能使人觉得恐怖.
你我没有交集,没有好谈的!
我是"良药苦口",大病下重药,看到 simply_leaf 的"实情"叙述,才如此回答的.
妳可能是较自私的,骄养长大的,绝对不成熟.
与妳到此为止.无缘.好吧.
The best marriage should be for both parties to make sacrifice for family without comparing who makes more sacrifice, if you compare, it feels more like a business. But that is a very hard standard, most of people can't do that, the next step would be treat everybody equal like business partners, do your share of responsibility if you require a similar contribution from the other side, discounted by different life attitude and aspirations. Discounting is important, because husbands and wives have different interests..."
===================
...this is a very good observation and advice for every married couple.
per:"...Some of ladies here are not treating husbands as a equal member of a family in their subconscious. They are taking it for granted that husbands must be ready to make sacrifice for the family anytime. If you think that way, then you need to be prepared to be ready to sacrifice yourself for the family at any time.
The best marriage should be for both parties to make sacrifice for family without comparing who makes more sacrifice, if you compare, it feels more like a business. But that is a very hard standard, most of people can't do that, the next step would be treat everybody equal like business partners, do your share of responsibility if you require a similar contribution from the other side, discounted by different life attitude and aspirations. Discounting is important, because husbands and wives have different interests..."
Indeed, this is a very good observation and advice for every married couple.
For wife to stay in US as backup plan, this maybe a tough job, but it is a backup for the family, not just for husband. Also it is not forever, just for one year. If the husband in concern does not take advantage of good "sex" service available in China, it is tough for him too.
Some of ladies here are not treating husbands as a equal member of a family in their subconscious. They are taking it for granted that husbands must be ready to make sacrifice for the family anytime. If you think that way, then you need to be prepared to be ready to sacrifice yourself for the family at any time.
The best marriage should be for both parties to make sacrifice for family without comparing who makes more sacrifice, if you compare, it feels more like a business. But that is a very hard standard, most of people can't do that, the next step would be treat everybody equal like business partners, do your share of responsibility if you require a similar contribution from the other side, discounted by different life attitude and aspirations. Discounting is important, because husbands and wives have different interests, something for wives are natural, but could be a sacrifice for husbands, it is true the other way around.
Finally, luck plays an important role in life and marriage too, do not force it too much one way or the other. Always think in a positive way. If it is really too much a burden to take care of two kids, you can send one kid to China, or both of them to China. Not a big deal, huh?
下面有些“女权宣言”，有丈夫们“不争气”的因素，也有期望落差的因素，即女人对生活期望通常高于男人。这对男人是一种鞭策，但也要理解这个不怎么样的社会只让极少数人过得顺心，极大部分人是“不如意事常八九”。自我心理要调整，事情似乎没有那么糟，很多人比事主更糟。离婚再婚用相当大的代价提供一个转折的机会，至于转好还是转坏应该是都有可能。而且好坏也不是windcat说的那样的截然两分。
我一般只潜水，一共只灌过3此水。
QQH就是文学城里的悄悄话，你没发过？你可太可耐了。
你是个性情中人。。。
谢谢你，太对了。小叶和我们就是group2.我为了孩子仍然坚持。但我会提出离婚的，等我孩子独立了。
丈夫们最差也应该说：妻子愿意在美国坚持，自己想法多来美国团聚。妻子如不愿意在美国坚持，想法安排孩子上学，老婆工作。真不应该要求妻子呆在国外给他做保障。太自私， 不人道。
1. 立即回国，做决定难，只是短痛。小孩们总能适用。学好中文也不错。
2. 保持现状，是长痛，那无数的夜晚孤独的煎熬是对女人的折磨。我们戏称活寡妇。所以我说丈夫们是太自私。太忙总是可以找到办法，比如花钱请人帮忙。但孤独谁能解？而且起码14年你的孩子才能独立。14年后你能回中国吗？如不能， 就是一辈子。你婆婆也支持你老公的做法吗？如支持，那只能说他妈有毛病，太自私。过去的分居本身就是不人道的， 完全不能成为今天分居的理由。丈夫让你留在美国，剥夺了你的性权利， 是极其不人道的。他们父亲们连自己的儿子，老婆都不能保障，那个事业是什么事业？有什么意义？
当然，丈夫是这样的想法，真没必要为了他做什么决定，想想那样对自己最好，就那样吧。
Group 1: they believe the wife is the one to love, to care for, and to protect.
They are willing to sacrifice their own interest for the wife and kids.
Group 2: they believe the wife is the one to be used, to be depend on, and to be backup.
Group 1's wife is the lucky one.
Group 2's wife is the unlucky one. You should either admit your fate, and learn to sacrifice yourself for your family; otherwise, you should have courage to give up this marriage and looking for a Group 1 husband.
Two of my closed friends have the same situation like you, they feel very pain, because they want to be taking care and to be loved, but their husbands just want to use them as backup and babysitter. One already divorced and remaining single; another still suffering but slowly begin to admit her role in the family.
首先,作为一个女人,首先考虑自己.虽然现在的工作如鸡肋,但回国后能不能找到比这个好的呢.
其次,作为一个母亲,孩子的心愿不能漠视,回国后孩子能不能适应呢?
站在旁观者的立场,我对这个丈夫感到挺失望的,所以给一句忠告:先考虑自己和孩子,夫妻关系放到第三位.
该不该回国遇到问题， 压力之下到网上求助。 我能理解她的心情。大家能给她一点鼓励就鼓励， 给点支持就支持， 有点实在的建议和思路最好。 这个叫帮人“排忧解难”。 这里的回帖虽然意见并不统一， 基本上都是走的这个路子。 而wiserman的回帖基本就是打棒子和扣帽子。可能他觉得发一通尖刻反驳， 把人的问题打发回去了就解决问题了。 这种做派很似从前某些国内领导对待农民问题：你闹个什么闹？国家这么困难你不替国家着想， 怎么这么自私？其实谁都知道， 国家困难可能是有的， 但是农民活不下去了更是事实。你想把担子都压到农民头上， 让他们自觉地闭嘴完事， 迟早逼农民起来造反。
“该不该回国”现在就是压力之大， 搞得有造反的心了。其实大部分的女性， 只要老公能表现得把家挂在心里， 哪怕只在嘴巴上多说点话，让老婆心里有点底， 老婆也都认帐，再怎么辛苦也跟着。 一般情况下，一个老婆只有对这个老公感到彻底绝望才会想到离婚。自然而然， 多半的人就会劝这个老婆多想点老公的好， 对老公建立信心， 另一方面劝老婆增强自立以免这个老公真的令人绝望。至于老婆具体选择怎么去做， 是老婆自己的事。别的人都替代不了。不管什么选择， 如果这个老婆最后觉得好， 我们替她感到欣慰， 如果这个老婆最后觉得不好， 我们替她扼腕兴叹。总之现在是这个老婆觉得痛苦， 而不是老公。
但是这个Wiserman呢， 上来就对这个老婆大打棒子。 先从她是“国内博士”打起。 我不清楚wiserman说“你这个博士白读了”， 是特指国内博士呢， 还是泛指一切博士。 姑且说是指国内博士， 那么Wiserman就给“国内博士”钉上了理想化的光环――既然是个“国内博士”， 就得精通人情世故， 就得读一些社会科学,人性,心理学...的书。
很有可能， wiserman自己是没有读过“国内博士”的， 所以才对“国内博士”有如此的高调想象。如果他读过， 就让人不得不怀疑他的学位很大部分是靠钻营得来的， 至少跟精通人情事故有关。 但更有可能， 他是没有读过海外博士的， 否则不会不知道在这儿拿个博士学位跟你是不是精通人情事故， 要不要读 社会科学,人性,心理学...的书可以完全没有关系。 当然， 就这样， 他也敢叫自己 “Wiserman”。 ：）
他之所以拿“国内博士”开刀， 大概是想说你一旦精通人情世故了， 生活的压力和担忧就不成其为压力和担忧了， 这个老婆的抱怨就应该没有了。但事实上， 我们看到这个自认懂得人情世故的wiserman对 一个诉苦求助的帖子都容忍不了，就不难想象他在生活中遇到什么事后的反应， 以及他这办法能有什么实际可操作性。
果然， 他的1到9，一条条quote原文然后唱反调， 要说的就是：你看的是镜子这面， 我看的是镜子那面，我看的那一面比你这一面更重要！我无法看到他如何精通人情世故游刃有余地解决问题， 但我看到他的大棒子（“成事不足,败事有余”，“你的先生可能很后悔,呀！遇到这样的老婆”）以及跟原贴不符的指责（e.g., 3）。 这种一边儿倒的评议就跟针尖对麦芒的夫妻吵架没有实质不同，除掉指责对方并没有什么建设性意义， 不能让抱怨的问题消于无形。
他指责完了接下来要求： “你要心胸开阔,多为人着想”。这句话就是说： 你目前这样的抱怨是心胸狭隘， 自私的表现。wiserman在没有切实理解“该不该回国”的苦处， 没有分析她老公的问题， 只是要求她打包自己的痛苦自己扛， 不应烦扰违逆丈夫。这就跟压制农民问题的领导们没什么两样了。
他最后说离婚也可以， 但是竟然陡然引申到， “中国教育是失败的,人文教育太欠缺了!” 这样的上纲上线也太可怕了， 甚至超出了压制农民的领导们了。 “该不该回国”如果真离婚了就代表中国（对女性？）教育的失败的和人文教育的欠缺吗？ 我实在觉得wiserman的言辞才代表了这样的问题。
有一些人， 缺乏对他人痛苦的基本尊重和关怀，自私， 冷酷。 不仅如此， 他们还要站尽道德的制高点来压制他人为己所用，且自以为是， 好为人师。这真就是让人感到非常的恐怖了。
自己想怎么活就怎么活，想那么多干什么！孩子在哪儿都会开心的，只要父母和睦，生活有保障就行。
若爱你的丈夫到了可以牺牲自己的份儿，就回国；不愿意的话，就留在美国，独立带孩子，也别那么多的抱怨。怨妇，没劲儿。自己都觉得没劲，是吧？
I am really ashamed for many chinese man, they went back to China, like being there, but do not want to take wife and children to there. How conflicting idea, let wife without sexy life in 2-3 months for his career, stupid. What this career is for? Only just he has good title, foolish.
But my point is: your husband is too selflish because of this: "他透露出孩子还是在美国好，他2-3个月回来一次。暑假我和孩子回国，这样我们全年在一起的时间也有5个月。还说我们回去的话，他要分心，不能更全心投入到他的事业中。". If he as a man, the core of the family life like living whereever he likes, but should arrange wife and the children to be with him.
Family should be together, either husband or wife get a more satisfied job in other place, should consider spouse and children, and arrnge properly.
Divorcing is not so hurry, except you get a new man friend, and you like him very much, you should be more active to find a new man friend if you really like USA life. Otherwise, just keepingthe situation, let your current husband flying until he gets boring, maybe he will find a new wife in China, be preparing for this.
该不该回国: do not be so worry. Here I am living in one of European country, there are several examples like you. Your husband is not resposible man, he is too selfish. Be strong and take care of your 2 children, they will be independent after 10 years (actually 5 years, it will be much easier for you). And if you may be independent and get the permanent job, and you like China very much, just go back to China with your children, they will adpate to China quite easily. If yourself cannot get the permanent job, do not like China, just stay in USA. Do not think about where is better for children, only think where is better for you. Children either in China or USA have pro and cos.
男的没说想离婚，也不是有了外遇。
女的若离了婚，还能嫁谁啊，日子会更好吗，对孩子会更好吗？
生活中的理解，妥协，隐忍和坚持非常重要，不要轻言放弃。
如果男人的梦想是回国创业，应该给他一次机会，不然他这辈子都觉得白活了。女方一人带两小孩，虽然辛苦，还是可以坚持的，一是这家人本来在美国就分居两地，女方一人带孩子， 二是美国单亲家庭不少，不是照样过。 有很多华人家庭就是这样的，男的国内创业，老婆孩子在美国，一家人两边跑，苦中有乐，过得也挺好的，犯不着全家都回去。
引:"感情这东西，合则聚，不合则散吧"
=== 大部分人的感情不是如此干脆的事.
我建议使用"各得其所,大家心安"的原则处理它.
你这个博士是白读了!一点人情世故都不懂.请多读一些社会科学,人性,心理学...的书,对你大有帮助.
1) 引"...儿女很喜欢美国。"
=== 因为她生于此地,小孩就是小孩.
2) 引"...毕竟他们要在美国读大学"
=== 为何你如此肯定???各种变化如此多...
3) 引"...我先生极力回国，在我的再三阻拦下仍然回去了...我现在都非...恨他的不负责任"
=== 你先生可能也再三劝你回去,为什么你不依?他该恨妳的不负责任!
4) 引"...我没法和你过了。他就没回去，机票作废"
=== 成事不足,败事有余.
5) 引"...他...回去之后他就不想回来了...又...商量，我还是坚决反对， 包括我的家人"
=== 你的反对理由充分又必要吗?你的家人最好不要牵涉在内!
6) 引"...我想即使我们全家都回去后，遇到不开心的事情，我都要怪到他的头上。"
=== 遇到不开心的事情在那里都有,遇到时,要全家合力承担责任!
7) 引"...我心里最担心的是...他还是不想回美国的话..."
=== 为什么一定要在美国生活?
8) 引"...我实在是怕耽误孩子的身心和前程。"
=== 孩子在美国就保证有锦绣前程?就一定身心健康?
9) 引"...我真是很矛盾。唉！遇到这样的老公。。。"
=== 你的先生可能很后悔,呀！遇到这样的老婆。。。
---------------------------------------------------------
10) 你要心胸开阔,多为人着想,从不同的角度看事情,不要只认定一个观点.
11) 若和老公真的合不来,分就分吧!但是,记住"好来好往",不可成冤家.也要知道,离婚的后果,艰苦一段时间,以后是好是坏,未知数.
但是,怎么办都能活下去. 不过:
为了住在美国,把丈夫甩掉,可能只有现在的中国人会如此做;印度人在这方面,比中国人清醒多了!一位引度熟人曾对我说,"我们引度几乎没有美国非法移民."...住在美国和回印度对他们说都差不多,各有得失.
中国教育是失败的,人文教育太欠缺了!
要么委曲求全，要么一刀两断
说太多谁对谁错，到头来也不过如此
这个老公呀, 品质真够差.
如果真的想无所顾及的做好事业, 那就不要结婚. 捞了婚姻的好处, 该他负责了, 就不乐意了, 居然可以厚颜无耻到指责孩子拖累自己的事业, 人家孩子还没抱怨当爹的没本事, 五年都要靠当妈一个人的工资养孩子.
说到骨气, 这么男士就更有问题了. 没钱没事业的时候, 说啥是啥, 刚刚熬出点头, 就冲着老婆耍个性, 要自尊了.典型的小人嘴脸.
夫妻感情，能改善的尽量改善，实在不行了，就考虑开始自己的新生活。
(1) Husband is not a responsible family-oriented man;
(2) Raising two kids and have a full-time job are too much works;
(3) She don't enjoy her current job;
(4) She and her husband is a middle-income, not rich enough to hire full-time nanny in US.
(5) She already at mid-age, not young and attractive anymore
I guess based on above conditions , the best solve is to go back together to China. In this way:
(1) Keep family safe, this is the best gifts for two kids than divorce;
(2) Can hire full-time nanny take-care of house-keeping jobs;
(3) She can have a freedom to chose a new excting career or become a relaxing house-wife;
(4) She will become more attractive because social support and cheaper labor;
(5) She will have more time with her mom and dad,...
(6) Her husband will love her again if she learn not to complain:)
看来你觉得她应该回国，给她的婚姻家庭一个新机会？
She has been talking a lot about US, GC, citizenship...Kids like US. No doubt because they grow up here. But remember, her husband and her are actually the parents of the kids, not the "US".
你说得很对。就是这么回事。有时人都爱把责任推给别人，我觉得“该不该”是个好女人，好母亲，但作为妻子呢？
We have to make choices all the time in our life. But we have to be clear what is the most important to us. You always blame your husband ignore the family, kids... but what about you? Making choices between family and funiture? Boy's swimming classes over his father?...