北方憨哥在北美
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正文
FAREED ZAKARIA GPS
Meeting with World Leaders at the United Nations
Aired September 28, 2008 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRAN. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.（注：本贴英文版内容和参考视频来自CNN）
FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST, GLOBAL PUBLIC SQUARE: Welcome to GPS, the GLOBAL PUBLIC SQUARE, to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Fareed Zakaria.
It's U.N. week in New York, the annual opening of the General Assembly. I had the chance to speak with several heads of state, among them Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, and we'll show you that interview.
法里德・扎卡里亚：欢迎你来到GPS（the GLOBAL PUBLIC SQUARE），我们的观众遍布美国和全球，我是法里德・扎卡里亚。在纽约过去的一周，联大峰会期间，我有机会采访了几个国家的领导人，其中有阿富汗总统哈米德・卡尔扎伊，随后你将会看到这次访谈。
But first, I also had the rare opportunity to meet with one of the most powerful men on earth, Wen Jiabao, the prime minister of China. I met with him in his suite at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York.
但是首先我要介绍的是，我也有了一个很难得的机会，访问世界的强人之一，中国的国务院总理温家宝，这次访谈在他居住的纽约阿道夫酒店的套房进行。
He hasn't given a television interview in five years. In fact, he has rarely spoken to American journalists. It was an extraordinary opportunity to speak with him at this crucial moment in history.
在过去的五年里，他还没有接受过这样的电视访谈。事实上，他很少对美国的媒体和记者发表谈话。在这个历史至关重要的时刻，能够和他交谈，是一次特别的机会。
China's rise to power is probably the single most important trend of our lifetime. It's changing the world. Yet we know so little about the country and the men who rule it. They control this vast land of 1.3 billion people, but they also have enormous influence over your life.
中国力量的崛起，或许是我们这一生中所目睹的一个最重要情势，她正在改变这个世界。而我们对于这样的一个国家和管理这个国家的人，还知之甚少。
The Chinese are by far the largest holders of American debt, for example. They buy billions of dollars' worth of American Treasury bills every week.
中国是美国国债的最大持有者，她每个星期从美国财政部购买价值10亿美元的国债。
What if they were to lose faith in America?
假如他们失去对美国的信任，将会发生什么？
专访第一部分视频
(BEGIN VIDEO)电视画面开始（CNN网络版的第一部分）
The first thing you should know about Wen Jiabao is that he is quite different from other Chinese leaders of the modern era. In China, his people have a nickname for him - Grandpa Wen.
你应当知道的关于温家宝第一件事情，就是他与当代和以往年代的其他中国领导人相当的不同，在中国，人们对他有一个亲切的昵称：温爷爷。
After this year's disastrous earthquake in Sichuan, he flew immediately to the devastated area, went out among the people to comfort them and met with many individually. He's more like an American politician than a Chinese apparatchik.
今年造成惨重损失的四川地震发生后，他立即飞到灾区，来到人民中间，探访灾民，安慰他们。他看起来不像是一个中国政治组织的领导人，更像是一个美国的政治家。
He is also, of course, an agile politician inside the labyrinthine ranks of his own party. A geologist by training, he manages to push reform through without alienating this conservative opponents.
当然，他在自己政党内的曲折起伏，经过历练，让他从一个地质学家成为一个灵活的政治家，顶着保守派的压力，管理并推进改革。
There were some conditions to my interview with Premier Wen. My condition was that I be allowed to ask any questions I wished, which the Chinese accepted. One of theirs was that I not comment on or characterize the substance of the interview. So I won't - except to say that I thought it was the most open and frank conversation I had ever seen or read with a Chinese leader.
专访温总理，有一些前提条件。我的条件是，我可以问我想问的任何问题，而不能受到限制，中国方面接受了。他们的条件之一是，我不能够评论或者刻意表现自己的主题，所以，我不能---我想说的除外。在我看过的、阅读过的与中国领导人访谈中，他是最开放、最坦诚的。
WEN JIABAO, PREMIER OF CHINA (voice of interpreter): Before we begin, I'd like to let you know that I will use the words from the bottom of my heart to answer your question, which means that I will tell the truth to all your questions.
中国总理温家宝：（在我们开始前，，，我习惯长篇大论的讲话了，所以你可以随时打断我。这样的话，我们的对话会更生动，，，）我还想给你说一句话，我想让你知道，我一定会回答你的所有问题。我讲的话，都是发自心底的话，也就是说，对你所有的问题，我的回答都是真实的。
ZAKARIA: I look forward to the chance for this dialogue. And I begin by thanking you for giving us the opportunity and the honor.
扎卡里亚：我期待这次和你对话的机会，访谈开始前，我要感谢你给与我们这个机会和荣誉。
The first thing I have to ask you I think is on many people's minds. What do you think of the current financial crisis affecting the United States? And does it make you think that the American model has many flaws in it that we are just recognizing now?
我必须要问你的第一个问题，我想许多人都会很关心，你怎么看待当前美国的金融危机？这事儿会使你认为美国的模式有许多缺点吗，而我们现在才刚刚认识到？
WEN (voice of interpreter): The crisis that occurred in the United States may have an impact that will affect the whole world.
温家宝：（我是6年前开始成为中国的总理的，，，再次之前，我是副总理，那个时候，亚洲出现了金融危机，，，。现在美国的问题，，，遭遇了）系统性的问题，目前在美国的危机很可能会有一个冲击，影响到整个世界。
Nonetheless, in face of such a crisis, we must also be aware that today's world is different from the world that people lived in back in the 1930s.
但是，面对这个危机，我们必须认识到，现在的世界，与30年代不同。
So this time, we should join hands and meet the crisis together. If the financial and economic systems in the United States go wrong, then the impact will be felt not only in this country, but also in China, in Asia and in the world at large.
所以我们应当携起手来，共同应对这场危机。因为美国的金融和经济出了问题，它所带来的影响，那不仅会影响到美国，也会波及中国、亚洲和世界的广大范围。
I have noted the host of policies and measures adopted by the U.S. government to prevent an isolated crisis from becoming a systematic one. And I hope that measures and steps that they have adopted will pay off.
我已经高度注意到美国政府采用一系列政策和措施，为了阻止一个局部的危机演变为系统的危机，我希望这些措施和步骤能够挽救金融机构。（，，，同时也能帮助稳定美国经济，并确保美国经济未来以稳健的方式成长）
ZAKARIA: Do you think you can continue to grow, if the United States goes into a major recession?
扎卡里亚：如果美国经济出现严重衰退的话，你认为中国经济能够持续增长吗？
WEN (voice of interpreter): A possible U.S. economic recession will certainly have an impact on the Chinese economy, because we know that 10 years ago the China-U.S. trade volume stood at only US$102.6 billion, while today, the figure soared to US$302 billion - actually representing an increase of 1.5-fold. A shrinking of U.S. demand will certainly have an impact on China's export.
温家宝：应该说，如果美国经济出现衰退，一定会影响到中国经济。因为我们大家都知道，中美之间的贸易额，在10年前，仅仅是1026亿美元，但是现在已经达到3020亿美元，几乎是增长了一倍半，如果美国需求减少，一定会影响到中国的出口。
And U.S. finance is closely connected with the Chinese finance. If anything goes wrong in the U.S. financial sector, we are anxious about the safety and security of Chinese capital.
另外，美国的资金和中国的金融联系是密切的，如果任何美国金融部门出了什么问题，我们当然也担心我们资金的安全。
That's why at the very beginning, I have made it clear that financial problems in this country not only concerns the interest of the United States, but also that of China and the world at large.
这也就是为什么我一开始说的，并清楚表明的，美国的金融问题不仅关系美国的利益，也同样关系到中国和世界的更大范围的利益。
ZAKARIA: There is another sense in which we are interdependent. China is the largest holder of U.S. Treasury bills. By some accounts, you hold almost $1 trillion of it. It makes Americans - some Americans - uneasy. Can you reassure them that China would never use this status as a weapon in some form?
扎卡里亚：这儿从另一个层面来看我们相互依赖的问题。中国是美国最大的国债持有者，在一些账户，你拥有近万亿，它使得美国人---一些美国人心神不安，你能表明中国不会利用这一优势在某些方面作为武器攻击美国，来打消他们的顾虑吗？
WEN (voice of interpreter): As I said, we believe that the U.S. real economy is still solidly based, particularly in the high-tech industries and the basic industries.
温家宝：（如果让我说，）我认为美国的实体经济仍然有牢固的基础，特别是在高科技领域和基础工业方面，基础是扎实的。
Now, something has gone wrong in the virtual economy. But if this problem is properly addressed, then it is still possible to stabilize the economy in this country.
现在，是在一些虚拟经济（符号经济）领域出了问题，如果这个问题被妥善解决了，美国的经济仍然可以保持稳定。
The Chinese government hopes very much that the U.S. side will be able to stabilize its economy and finance as quickly as possible. And we also hope to see sustained development in the United States, as that will benefit China.
作为中国政府，我们非常希望美国尽可能迅速地稳定经济和金融，我也希望看到美国有同样速度的经济发展，因为那样对中国史有益的。
Of course, we are concerned about the safety and security of Chinese money here. But we believe that the United States is a credible country, and particularly at such difficult times, China has reached out to the United States.
我们当然会关心自己资金的安全，但是我们相信，美国是一个有信用的国家，而在美国经济出现了困难的时候，我们伸出了手去，帮助美国。
And actually, we believe such a helping hand will help stabilize the entire global economy and finance, and to prevent major chaos from occurring in the global economic and financial system. I believe now, cooperation is everything.
而实际上，我们相信这样将能够帮助全球的经济和金融趋于稳定，并能阻止全球经济和金融体系的更大混乱，我以为，合作比什么都重要。
ZAKARIA: Premier, when your country has grown, as you pointed out, 9.5 percent for 30 years - the fastest growth rate of any country in history - if people come to you and say to you, what is the Chinese model of succeeding as a developing country, what would you say the - what is the key to your success? What is the model?
扎卡里亚：总理，正如你所指出的，你的国家连续30年保持9.5%的快速增长，是历史上持续发展速度最快的国家。如果有人来到你面前对你说，作为一个发展中国家，中国成功的秘诀是什么？成功的关键是什么？这是一种什么模式？
WEN (voice of interpreter): By introducing reform and opening up, we have greatly emancipated productivity in China. We have one important thought, that socialism can also practice market economy.
温家宝：改革开放，极大地解放了中国的生产力。我们（有）一个重要的观念，社会主义也可以实行市场经济。（你可以想想，为甚么30年前中国不能像后来那样快速发展？我想，这是因为我们在1978年实施了改革开放的政策，这就是中国成功的关键。我们有一个重要的思想，社会主义也可以搞市场经济。制订经济政策，在政府宏观调控下，充分发挥市场在资源配置方面的作用。）
专访第二部分视频
(BEGIN VIDEO)电视画面开始（CNN网络版第二部分）
ZAKARIA: People think that's a contradiction. You have the market economy where the market allocates resources. In socialism it's all central planning. How do you make both work?
扎卡里亚：人们认为这是一个矛盾，你实行市场经济，靠市场配置资源，而社会主义，所有一切是中央计划。你如何让两者都起作用？
WEN (voice of interpreter): The complete formulation of our economic policy is to give full play to the basic role of market forces in allocating resources under the macroeconomic guidance and regulation of the government.
温家宝：我们的经济政策，如果要完整的陈述，那就是在整体经济规划和政府的宏观调控下，充分发挥市场经济的资源配置在整体经济运行中所起的基础性作用。
We have one important piece of experience of the past 30 years, that is to ensure that both the visible hand and invisible hand are given pull play in regulating the market forces.
我们过去的30年，有一条重要的经验，就是要确保看得见的手（政府调控）和看不见的手（市场调控）这两只手，同时在调节市场上发挥作用。
If you are familiar with the classical works of Adam Smith, you know that there are two famous works of his. One is "The Wealth of Nations." The other is the book on the morality and ethics. And "The Wealth of Nations" deals more with the invisible hand, that is, there are the market forces. And the other book deals with social equity and justice. And in the other book he wrote, he stressed the importance of playing the regulatory role of the government to fairly distribute the wealth among the people.
其实，如果你读过亚当・斯密斯（经典著作）的话，你就会知道他的两本名著。一本是《国富论》，另一本是《道德情操论》。前者说的是市场的力量和作用，看不见的手，另一本书里较多地阐述了社会公平和正义。在他的书里，他强调国家要扮演重要的角色，通过政府的调节，把财富公平地分配到每个人手里。
If in a country most of the wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few, then this country can hardly witness harmony and stability.
如果一个国家的大部分财富集中在少数人手里，那么，这个国家就很难看到和谐与稳定。
The same approach also applies to the current U.S. economy. To address the current economic and financial problems in this country, we need to apply not only the visible hand, but also the invisible hand.
同样的情况，这也适用于现在美国的经济。为解决美国目前经济和金融问题，也是要采用两只手，不仅适用看得见的手，也适用看不见的手。
ZAKARIA: China's onward rise has taken many forms - economic, cultural and political. Naturally, it has had an increasingly active foreign policy - so far, somewhat narrowly focused on securing China's interests. I spoke to Premier Wen about China's larger world role.
扎卡里亚：中国的向前崛起发生在许多方面，经济的，文化的，政治的。自然而然地，在外交政策方面---目前，在一些中国感兴趣的安全领域，所起的作用也日益增强。我问温总理，关于这方面中国在世界的角色。
ZAKARIA: Many people see China as a superpower already. And they wonder, why is it not being more active in political resolution of issues such as the issue of Darfur, or the issue of Iran and its nuclear ambitions.
扎卡里亚：在许多人看来，中国已经是一个超级强国。但是他们很想知道，中国为什么不在政治解决诸如达尔福尔问题和伊朗有发展核武的野心等问题上发挥自己更多的作用呢？
There's a hope that China will play a role as a responsible stakeholder - to use Robert Zoellick's phrase when he was deputy secretary of state - and that China will be more active in managing the political problems in the world, and that so far, it has not been active.
人们希望中国扮演有责任的利益相关者的重要角色，用当年美国副国务卿罗伯特•佐力克的话来说，中国应该在世界重大政治问题上起到更积极的作用，直到目前为止，还没有看到中国的积极行动。
How would you react to that?
你对这些问题有何反应？
WEN (voice of interpreter): To answer this question, I need to correct some of the elements in your question. First, China is not a superpower.
温家宝：（在回答你的问题之前），我首先要纠正你的提问（中的一个错误），中国不是一个超级强国。
Although China has a population of 1.3 billion, and although in recent years China has registered fairly fast economic and social development since reform and opening up, China still has this problem of unbalanced development between different regions and between China's urban and rural areas. China remains a developing country.
中国有13亿人口，虽然这些年来因为改革开放，中国的经济和社会取得了较快的发展，但是中国是一个发展中国家，中国仍然存在城乡差别和区域发展不平衡的问题。
We still have 800 million farmers in rural areas, and we still dozens of million people living in poverty. To address our own problems, we need to do a great deal. China is not a superpower.
我们还有8亿农民生活在乡下，我们还有1200万人的绝对贫困人口，6000万人吃低保，靠吃救济维持基本生活。同时，每年我们需要关照到2300万城市失业者和大约2亿进城找工作的农民。我们不是一个超级大国，我们还有大量的问题需要自己解决。
That's why we need to focus on our own development and on our efforts to improve people's lives.
这就是为什么我们需要集中精力促进自身的发展，来努力改善人民的生活。
ZAKARIA: But surely, the Chinese government could pressure the Sudanese government, or the Iranian government, or the government in Burma to ease - to be less repressive. You have relations with all three of them.
扎卡里亚：但是可以确信，中国政府能够对苏丹政府施加压力，或者对伊朗政府，对缅甸政府，给与影响或者适当的动作，你们和上述三国都有（密切的）关系。
WEN (voice of interpreter): That brings me to your second question. Actually, in the international community, China is a justice-upholding country. We never trade our principles.
温家宝：我现在回答你（前面提）的第二个问题。实际上，中国在国际社会，是一个主持公平正义的国家，我们从来不会拿原则作交换。
Take the Darfur issue that you raised just now, for example. China has always advocated that we need to adopt a dual-track approach to seek a solution to the Darfur issue.
就拿你提到的达尔福尔问题来说，中国一直倡导采用多重形式和方法，解决达尔福尔问题。
China was among the first countries that sent - sending peacekeepers to Darfur. China was also the first country that gave assistance to Sudan. And we also keep our efforts to engage the leaders in Sudan, to try to seek a peaceful solution to the issue as quickly as possible.
中国是最早向达尔福尔派出国际维和部队的国家，也是最早向苏丹提供援助的国家。我们在不断促使苏丹领导人，努力寻求和平的手段让苏丹问题能够早日得到解决。
ZAKARIA: Do you think it would be dangerous for the world if Iran got nuclear weapons? And what do you think the world should do to try to stop that possibility?
扎卡里亚：你认为伊朗拥有核武器是危险的吗？你如何看待世界应当努力制止的可能性？
WEN (voice of interpreter): We are not supportive of a nuclearized Iran. We believe that Iran has the right to develop the utilization of nuclear energy in a peaceful way. But such efforts should be subject to the safeguards of the IAEA, and Iran should not develop nuclear weapons. As far as the Iranian nuclear issue is concerned, China's stand is clear-cut.
我们不赞成伊朗拥有核武器，我们认为伊朗可以利用核能，有权走和平发展核能的道路，但是这些活动必须接受国际原子能组织的监督。但是伊朗不能发展核武器。目前，中国对伊朗问题是关注的，因此，在伊核问题上，我们的态度是十分鲜明的。
Nevertheless, we hope that we can use peaceful talks to achieve the purpose, rather than resort to the willful use of force or the intimidation of force.
不管怎么说，我们都是希望能利用和谈的方式达到目的，动则诉诸武力或者武力威胁无助于问题的解决。
It's like treating the relationship between two individuals. If one individual tries to corner the other, then the effect will be counterproductive. That will do nothing in helping resolve the problem. Our purpose is to resolve the problem, not to escalate tensions.
就像处理两个人的关系一样，如果一个人试图将另一个人逼到墙角（绝境）的话，那会适得其反，不利于问题的解决。我们的目的是解决问题，而不是制造紧张局势。
And I also have a question for you. Don't you think that the efforts made by China in resolving the Korean nuclear issue and the position we have adopted in this regard have actually helped the situation on the Korean Peninsula move for the better, day by day?
那我反过来问你，中国在处理朝核问题上，我们采用彼此尊重的积极态度，实际上有助于朝鲜半岛局势，一天一天向好的方向发展，你不认为中国在解决朝鲜核问题上所做出的努力吗？
And of course, I know that it still takes time to see a thorough and a complete solution to the Korean nuclear issue and, on that basis, to help put in place security and stability in Northeast Asia. But what I would like to stress is that the model that we have adopted, and the efforts we have made, proved to be right in this direction.
当然，我知道，要看到朝鲜核问题彻底完全的解决，还要花费时间。基于这一点，我们将致力于推动东北亚的安全和稳定。但是我强调的是，我们所采用的这种方式和努力，证明这个方向是正确的。
ZAKARIA: Since you honored me by asking the question, I will say to you, Premier, that China's efforts in North Korea have been appreciated in the United States and around the world. And, of course, it makes people wish that China would be active in other areas in just the same productive way that it was in North Korea, because we see that it produces results.
扎卡里亚：很荣幸能回答你的问题，我要对你说，总理，中国在朝鲜问题上的努力，美国和全世界是很感激的。正因为如此，在围绕当今世界的许多方面，人们期待中国发挥自己的作用积极介入，正像在朝鲜问题上那样，让我们看到产生的成果。
WEN (voice of interpreter): We have gained a lot of experience and learned lessons from years of negotiations concerning the Six- Party Talks. And the progress made in the Six-Party Talks also has a lot to do with the close cooperation among the six parties.
温家宝：经历了这么多年的六方会谈，我们学习到了许多课程并获得了许多经验，六方会谈之所以取得进步，得益于参与的六方彼此之间有许多的密切合作。
(END VIDEO视频二结束)
ZAKARIA: Up next, Premier Wen Jiabao addresses tough issues - the Dalai Lama and Tiananmen Square.
扎卡里亚：下面的内容，与温家宝总理的谈话触及了达赖喇嘛和天安门广场
专访第三部分视频
(BEGIN VIDEO)电视画面开始（CNN网络版第三部分）
ZAKARIA: In my conversation with Wen Jiabao, China's premier, one of the most complex and controversial subjects was the discussion of democracy.
扎卡里亚：在我与中国总理温家宝的访谈中，最复杂并最有争议的题目之一，是关于民主的讨论。
Wen has deep experience with the issue. In 1989, he was one of the Communist Party officials who went to Tiananmen Square to talk to the protestors.
温亲身经历了1989年学潮，他是来到天安门广场与抗议者对话的共产党官员之一，
I asked him whether that experience had made him want to slow down or stop political reform. Listen to what he had to say.
我问他那次经验是否导致他希望放慢或停止政治改革，听听他是怎么说的。
ZAKARIA: I will take advantage of your kindness and ask a question that many people around the world wonder about.
扎卡里亚：我将利用你的善意问你一个全球许多人都想知道的一个问题
There is a very famous photograph of you at Tiananmen Square in 1989. What lesson did you take from your experiences in dealing with that problem in 1989?
这是拍摄于1989年你在天安门广场的一张很著名的照片，处理1989年的问题，你从中获得的经验里学到了什么？
WEN (voice of interpreter): I believe that, while moving ahead with the economic reforms, we also need to advance political reforms. As our development is comprehensive in nature, our reform should also be comprehensive.
温家宝：我觉得（认为），我们国家在推进经济体制改革同时，必须继续需推进政治体制改革，我们的发展应该是全面的发展，我们改革也应该是全面的改革。
I think the core of your question is about the development of democracy in China. I believe, when it comes to the development of democracy in China, we talk about progress to be made in three areas.
其实你的问题的核心，是关心中国的民主政治发展。我认为，民主政治在中国的发展，不外乎在三个方面：
Number one, we need to gradually improve the democratic election system, so that state power will truly belong to the people, and state power will be used to serve the people.
第一，逐步完善民主选举制度，使国家权力真正属于人民，国家的权力真正服务于人民。
Number two, we need to improve the legal system, run the country according to law and establish the country under the rule of law. And we need to build an independent and just judicial system.
第二，改革完善法律制度，依法治国，建立法治国家，使司法保持独立和公正。
Number three, government should be subject to oversight by the people, and if (ph) you ask us, call on us to increase transparency in government affairs. And particularly, it is also necessary for government to accept oversight by the news media and other parties.
第三，政府必须接受群众的监督，增加政府的清廉和透明度，特别是，政府要接受新闻媒体和其他党派的监督。（还有一个很重要因素，在中国发展民主，必须考虑中国的国情，需要引进适合中国国情的制度，要循序渐进。）
ZAKARIA: When I go to China and I'm in the hotel, and if I type in the words "Tiananmen Square" in my computer, I get a firewall, what some people call "the Great Firewall of China." Can you be an advanced society, if you don't have freedom of information, to find out information on the Internet?
扎拉里亚：我在中国住酒店时，如果我在电脑中输入“天安门广场”的字眼，会碰到防火墙阻挡，有人称为“伟大的中国防火墙”。你认为，如果一个资讯不开放的社会、不能在互联网上找到信息的社会，能成为一个先进社会吗？
WEN (voice of interpreter): China now has over 200 million Internet users. And the freedom of Internet in China is recognized by many, even from the West.
温家宝：中国的互联网，现在有超过两亿互联网用户。中国互联网是自由的，即使是西方国家的许多人所公认的。
Nonetheless, to uphold state security, China, like many countries in the world, has also imposed some proper restrictions. And that is for the safety - that is for the overall safety of the country and for the freedom of the majority of the people.
当然，为了维护国家安全，任何国家都会对互联网采取必要的限制。这也是为了维护更多人的自由和为了国家的安全。
I can also tell you, on the Internet in China, you can have access to a lot of postings that are quite critical about the government. I frequently browse the Internet.
我也可以告诉你，你也可以在中国的互联网，看到许多直接批评政府的帖子，通过读那些帖子，我们可以找出存在问题，进一步改进工作。我不认为一个制度或政府应该害怕批评的意见或看法。我经常浏览互联网，了解情况。
ZAKARIA: What are your favorite sites?
扎拉里亚：你最喜欢的站点是什么？
WEN (voice of interpreter): I browsed a lot of Internet web sites.
温家宝：我浏览过许多网站。
ZAKARIA: May I ask you about another set of possible talks? The Dalai Lama has said, now, it appears that he would accept China's rule in Tibet. He accepts the socialist system in Tibet. And what he asks for is cultural autonomy and a certain degree of political autonomy.
扎卡里亚：我可以问你关于另一个可能的会谈吗？达赖喇嘛过去说过，现在公开表明，他愿意接受中国对西藏的管辖，他愿意接受目前在西藏的社会制度，他所寻求的是文化的自治和一定程度上的政治的自治。
The talks apparently are stuck at a lower level between the Tibetans and the Chinese government. Why don't you, given your power and your negotiating skills, take the issue yourself, and you or President Hu Jintao were to negotiate directly with the Dalai Lama and solve this issue once and for all, for the benefit of the Chinese people and, of course, the Tibetan people who are also in China?
这个会谈，显然在藏人和中国中央政府之间较低级别的层次上卡住了，你为什么不运用你的权力和谈判技巧，由你或国家主席胡锦涛接手，与达赖喇嘛直接谈判，解决西藏问题，以造福于中国人民，当然也包括在中国的西藏人民？
WEN (voice of interpreter): In many places all over the world, the Dalai Lama keeps preaching about the idea of the so-called autonomy in the greater Tibetan region. And actually, the so-called autonomy that he pursues is actually to use religion to intervene in politics. And they want to separate the so-called "greater Tibetan region" from the motherland.
温家宝：他在世界的许多地方，大力宣扬所谓大藏区的所谓的自治，其目的实际上就是利用宗教，干预政治，试图使“大藏区”从中国分裂脱离出去。
And many people in the United States have no idea how big is the so-called "greater Tibetan region." The so-called "greater Tibetan region," preached by the Dalai Lama, actually covers Tibet, Sichuan, Yunnan, Qinghai and Gansu - altogether, five provinces. And the area covered by this so-called "greater Tibetan region" accounts for a quarter of China's territory.
很多美国人并不知道，“大藏区”究竟有多大？达赖喇嘛鼓吹的所谓“大藏区”，包括西藏、四川、云南、青海和甘肃---五个省，所涉及的领土，相当于中国领土的四分之一。（我们和达赖的问题不是民族、宗教或文化问题，而是关系到维护国家统一的原则问题。我们要看到达赖的两面性，他一方面是宗教领袖，在西藏具有一定的影响力，特别是在宗教方面；另一方面，他不是普通的宗教人物，他建立的所谓西藏流亡政府，就是要把西藏从中国分裂出去。）
For decades, our policy towards the Dalai Lama remains unchanged. That is, as long as the Dalai Lama is willing to recognize that Tibet is an inalienable part of China's territory, and as long as the Dalai Lama gives up his separatist activities, we are willing to have contact and talks with him or his representatives. Now, sincerity holds the key to producing results out of the talks.
几十年来，我们对达赖的政策始终未变，只要他承认西藏是中国领土不可分割的一部份，并且放弃分裂图谋，我们就愿意和他或者他的代表进行接触、对话，商谈的结果在于要有诚意。我是否与他接触并不是问题。我们希望他用行动表明诚意，打破僵局。
(END VIDEO视频三结束)
专访第四部分视频
(BEGIN VIDEO)电视画面开始（CNN网络版第四部分）
ZAKARIA: What action would you like to see from the Dalai Lama that would show sincerity?
扎卡里亚：你希望看到达赖喇嘛用什么行动来表达其诚意？
WEN (voice of interpreter): Actually, I already made it clear that, when we observe any individual, the Dalai Lama included, we should not only watch what - we should not only observe what he says, but also watch what he does.
温家宝：实际上我已经清楚表明了。我们观察任何人，包括达赖喇嘛，我们不只要听他说什么，还要看他做什么，必要时我们也会考虑提高对话的层次。
His sincerity can be demonstrated in giving up separatist activities. But then, everything depends on the development of the situation.
他的诚意就是能够真正放弃分裂祖国的活动，到那个时候我们再看事态的发展。
ZAKARIA: China's premier, Wen Jiabao, is a reading man a poet, and I asked him about something he was reading.
中国的总理温家宝，是一个喜欢读书和作诗的人，我问他过去读过的一些书。
ZAKARIA: You have said that you have read the works of Marcus Aurelius 100 times. Marcus Aurelius is a famous Stoic philosopher.
扎卡里亚：你说过你曾经上百次读过马克・奥里利乌斯作品，他是一个著名的哲学家。
My reading of him says that one should not be involved in the self and in any kind of pursuits that are self-interested, but should be more for the community as a whole.
从他的书里我读到，他说一个人不应当只是关注自我，注重自我的利益，应当更多的考虑到社会这个整体。
When I go to China these days, I'm struck by how much individualism there is, how much consumerism there is. Are you trying to send a signal to the Chinese people to think less about themselves and more about the community?
我在中国的日子里，看到太多的人倾向于个人主义和消费享乐主义，你是否试图传递给他们一个信号，让中国人更多的关注这个社会而不仅仅是自己？
WEN (voice of interpreter): It is true. I did read the "Meditations" written by Marcus Aurelius Antonio many occasions. And I was very deeply impressed by the words that he wrote in the book to the effect that, where are those people who were great for a time? They are all gone, living only a story, or some even just half a story. So, I draw the conclusion that only people are in the position to create history and to write history.
温家宝：我是说过，我曾多次读过马克・奥里利乌斯写的《沉思录》，他在书里写的话深深打动了我，我对其中的一句话记忆很深刻：看那些所谓赫赫一时的人物，现在都到哪里去了？最后都烟消云散了，留下的只是一个故事，有的连一个故事还不是，只是半个故事，真正创造历史的、并且书写历史的，只有人民。
I very much value morality. And I do believe that entrepreneurs, economists and statesmen alike should pay much more attention to morality and ethics.
我十分重视道德，我认为企业家、经济学家、政治家都应该更多的关注道德和职业操守。
In my mind, the highest standard to measure the ethics and morality is justice.
在我的思想里，衡量道德和道德规范的最高标准，就是公正。
It is true, in the course of China's economic development, some companies have actually pursued their profits at the expense of morality. And we will never allow such things to happen. We will not allow economic growth at the expense of the loss of morality, because such an approach simply cannot be sustained. That's why we advocate corporate, occupational and social ethics.
我们在经济发展过程中，许多企业为了追逐利润而丧失了道德，这是我所不允许的。我们决不允许丧失道德来发展经济，因为那注定是不会持久的，因此我们提倡要有企业道德、职业道德和社会道德。
ZAKARIA: You've talked about elections many times. Do you think in 25 years there will be national elections in which there will be a competition, there will be perhaps two parties running for the positions such as your own?
扎拉里亚：关于选举，你以前谈过多次，那么，25年后，中国是否会通过国家选举，让两个政党来竞争像你这样的国家领导人的席位呢？
WEN (voice of interpreter): It's hard for me to predict what will happen in 25 years' time.This being said, I have this conviction that China's democracy will continue to grow.
温家宝： 25年以后的事情我很难预见，这个问题我开始的时候说过，但是我有一个信念，我认为中国的民主政治一定会继续发展。
In 20 to 30 years' time, the whole Chinese society will be more democratic and fairer, and the legal system in China will further be improved. Socialism, as we see it, will further mature and improve.
再过二、三十年，中国将会更加民主，法制会更加完善，社会，会更加公正。
ZAKARIA: On that happy note, I thank you, Your Excellency. I'm sure your people are worried that we've taken a little bit extra time. And I thank you in advance for your kindness and your frankness.
扎卡里亚：总理阁下，谢谢您，我相信您的部下已经不开心了，我们已经超出了一点点预定的访谈时间，再次谢谢你的善意和你的坦诚。
(END VIDEO视频结束)
《惊艳：无与伦比天仙美女 公然裸躺北美大地（组图）》
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Meeting with World Leaders at the United Nations
Aired September 28, 2008 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRAN. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.（注：本贴英文版内容和参考视频来自CNN）
FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST, GLOBAL PUBLIC SQUARE: Welcome to GPS, the GLOBAL PUBLIC SQUARE, to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Fareed Zakaria.
It's U.N. week in New York, the annual opening of the General Assembly. I had the chance to speak with several heads of state, among them Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, and we'll show you that interview.
法里德・扎卡里亚：欢迎你来到GPS（the GLOBAL PUBLIC SQUARE），我们的观众遍布美国和全球，我是法里德・扎卡里亚。在纽约过去的一周，联大峰会期间，我有机会采访了几个国家的领导人，其中有阿富汗总统哈米德・卡尔扎伊，随后你将会看到这次访谈。
But first, I also had the rare opportunity to meet with one of the most powerful men on earth, Wen Jiabao, the prime minister of China. I met with him in his suite at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York.
但是首先我要介绍的是，我也有了一个很难得的机会，访问世界的强人之一，中国的国务院总理温家宝，这次访谈在他居住的纽约阿道夫酒店的套房进行。
He hasn't given a television interview in five years. In fact, he has rarely spoken to American journalists. It was an extraordinary opportunity to speak with him at this crucial moment in history.
在过去的五年里，他还没有接受过这样的电视访谈。事实上，他很少对美国的媒体和记者发表谈话。在这个历史至关重要的时刻，能够和他交谈，是一次特别的机会。
China's rise to power is probably the single most important trend of our lifetime. It's changing the world. Yet we know so little about the country and the men who rule it. They control this vast land of 1.3 billion people, but they also have enormous influence over your life.
中国力量的崛起，或许是我们这一生中所目睹的一个最重要情势，她正在改变这个世界。而我们对于这样的一个国家和管理这个国家的人，还知之甚少。
The Chinese are by far the largest holders of American debt, for example. They buy billions of dollars' worth of American Treasury bills every week.
中国是美国国债的最大持有者，她每个星期从美国财政部购买价值10亿美元的国债。
What if they were to lose faith in America?
假如他们失去对美国的信任，将会发生什么？
(BEGIN VIDEO)电视画面开始（CNN网络版的第一部分）
The first thing you should know about Wen Jiabao is that he is quite different from other Chinese leaders of the modern era. In China, his people have a nickname for him - Grandpa Wen.
你应当知道的关于温家宝第一件事情，就是他与当代和以往年代的其他中国领导人相当的不同，在中国，人们对他有一个亲切的昵称：温爷爷。
After this year's disastrous earthquake in Sichuan, he flew immediately to the devastated area, went out among the people to comfort them and met with many individually. He's more like an American politician than a Chinese apparatchik.
今年造成惨重损失的四川地震发生后，他立即飞到灾区，来到人民中间，探访灾民，安慰他们。他看起来不像是一个中国政治组织的领导人，更像是一个美国的政治家。
He is also, of course, an agile politician inside the labyrinthine ranks of his own party. A geologist by training, he manages to push reform through without alienating this conservative opponents.
当然，他在自己政党内的曲折起伏，经过历练，让他从一个地质学家成为一个灵活的政治家，顶着保守派的压力，管理并推进改革。
There were some conditions to my interview with Premier Wen. My condition was that I be allowed to ask any questions I wished, which the Chinese accepted. One of theirs was that I not comment on or characterize the substance of the interview. So I won't - except to say that I thought it was the most open and frank conversation I had ever seen or read with a Chinese leader.
专访温总理，有一些前提条件。我的条件是，我可以问我想问的任何问题，而不能受到限制，中国方面接受了。他们的条件之一是，我不能够评论或者刻意表现自己的主题，所以，我不能---我想说的除外。在我看过的、阅读过的与中国领导人访谈中，他是最开放、最坦诚的。
WEN JIABAO, PREMIER OF CHINA (voice of interpreter): Before we begin, I'd like to let you know that I will use the words from the bottom of my heart to answer your question, which means that I will tell the truth to all your questions.
中国总理温家宝：（在我们开始前，，，我习惯长篇大论的讲话了，所以你可以随时打断我。这样的话，我们的对话会更生动，，，）我还想给你说一句话，我想让你知道，我一定会回答你的所有问题。我讲的话，都是发自心底的话，也就是说，对你所有的问题，我的回答都是真实的。
ZAKARIA: I look forward to the chance for this dialogue. And I begin by thanking you for giving us the opportunity and the honor.
扎卡里亚：我期待这次和你对话的机会，访谈开始前，我要感谢你给与我们这个机会和荣誉。
The first thing I have to ask you I think is on many people's minds. What do you think of the current financial crisis affecting the United States? And does it make you think that the American model has many flaws in it that we are just recognizing now?
我必须要问你的第一个问题，我想许多人都会很关心，你怎么看待当前美国的金融危机？这事儿会使你认为美国的模式有许多缺点吗，而我们现在才刚刚认识到？
WEN (voice of interpreter): The crisis that occurred in the United States may have an impact that will affect the whole world.
温家宝：（我是6年前开始成为中国的总理的，，，再次之前，我是副总理，那个时候，亚洲出现了金融危机，，，。现在美国的问题，，，遭遇了）系统性的问题，目前在美国的危机很可能会有一个冲击，影响到整个世界。
Nonetheless, in face of such a crisis, we must also be aware that today's world is different from the world that people lived in back in the 1930s.
但是，面对这个危机，我们必须认识到，现在的世界，与30年代不同。
So this time, we should join hands and meet the crisis together. If the financial and economic systems in the United States go wrong, then the impact will be felt not only in this country, but also in China, in Asia and in the world at large.
所以我们应当携起手来，共同应对这场危机。因为美国的金融和经济出了问题，它所带来的影响，那不仅会影响到美国，也会波及中国、亚洲和世界的广大范围。
I have noted the host of policies and measures adopted by the U.S. government to prevent an isolated crisis from becoming a systematic one. And I hope that measures and steps that they have adopted will pay off.
我已经高度注意到美国政府采用一系列政策和措施，为了阻止一个局部的危机演变为系统的危机，我希望这些措施和步骤能够挽救金融机构。（，，，同时也能帮助稳定美国经济，并确保美国经济未来以稳健的方式成长）
ZAKARIA: Do you think you can continue to grow, if the United States goes into a major recession?
扎卡里亚：如果美国经济出现严重衰退的话，你认为中国经济能够持续增长吗？
WEN (voice of interpreter): A possible U.S. economic recession will certainly have an impact on the Chinese economy, because we know that 10 years ago the China-U.S. trade volume stood at only US$102.6 billion, while today, the figure soared to US$302 billion - actually representing an increase of 1.5-fold. A shrinking of U.S. demand will certainly have an impact on China's export.
温家宝：应该说，如果美国经济出现衰退，一定会影响到中国经济。因为我们大家都知道，中美之间的贸易额，在10年前，仅仅是1026亿美元，但是现在已经达到3020亿美元，几乎是增长了一倍半，如果美国需求减少，一定会影响到中国的出口。
And U.S. finance is closely connected with the Chinese finance. If anything goes wrong in the U.S. financial sector, we are anxious about the safety and security of Chinese capital.
另外，美国的资金和中国的金融联系是密切的，如果任何美国金融部门出了什么问题，我们当然也担心我们资金的安全。
That's why at the very beginning, I have made it clear that financial problems in this country not only concerns the interest of the United States, but also that of China and the world at large.
这也就是为什么我一开始说的，并清楚表明的，美国的金融问题不仅关系美国的利益，也同样关系到中国和世界的更大范围的利益。
ZAKARIA: There is another sense in which we are interdependent. China is the largest holder of U.S. Treasury bills. By some accounts, you hold almost $1 trillion of it. It makes Americans - some Americans - uneasy. Can you reassure them that China would never use this status as a weapon in some form?
扎卡里亚：这儿从另一个层面来看我们相互依赖的问题。中国是美国最大的国债持有者，在一些账户，你拥有近万亿，它使得美国人---一些美国人心神不安，你能表明中国不会利用这一优势在某些方面作为武器攻击美国，来打消他们的顾虑吗？
WEN (voice of interpreter): As I said, we believe that the U.S. real economy is still solidly based, particularly in the high-tech industries and the basic industries.
温家宝：（如果让我说，）我认为美国的实体经济仍然有牢固的基础，特别是在高科技领域和基础工业方面，基础是扎实的。
Now, something has gone wrong in the virtual economy. But if this problem is properly addressed, then it is still possible to stabilize the economy in this country.
现在，是在一些虚拟经济（符号经济）领域出了问题，如果这个问题被妥善解决了，美国的经济仍然可以保持稳定。
The Chinese government hopes very much that the U.S. side will be able to stabilize its economy and finance as quickly as possible. And we also hope to see sustained development in the United States, as that will benefit China.
作为中国政府，我们非常希望美国尽可能迅速地稳定经济和金融，我也希望看到美国有同样速度的经济发展，因为那样对中国史有益的。
Of course, we are concerned about the safety and security of Chinese money here. But we believe that the United States is a credible country, and particularly at such difficult times, China has reached out to the United States.
我们当然会关心自己资金的安全，但是我们相信，美国是一个有信用的国家，而在美国经济出现了困难的时候，我们伸出了手去，帮助美国。
And actually, we believe such a helping hand will help stabilize the entire global economy and finance, and to prevent major chaos from occurring in the global economic and financial system. I believe now, cooperation is everything.
而实际上，我们相信这样将能够帮助全球的经济和金融趋于稳定，并能阻止全球经济和金融体系的更大混乱，我以为，合作比什么都重要。
ZAKARIA: Premier, when your country has grown, as you pointed out, 9.5 percent for 30 years - the fastest growth rate of any country in history - if people come to you and say to you, what is the Chinese model of succeeding as a developing country, what would you say the - what is the key to your success? What is the model?
扎卡里亚：总理，正如你所指出的，你的国家连续30年保持9.5%的快速增长，是历史上持续发展速度最快的国家。如果有人来到你面前对你说，作为一个发展中国家，中国成功的秘诀是什么？成功的关键是什么？这是一种什么模式？
WEN (voice of interpreter): By introducing reform and opening up, we have greatly emancipated productivity in China. We have one important thought, that socialism can also practice market economy.
温家宝：改革开放，极大地解放了中国的生产力。我们（有）一个重要的观念，社会主义也可以实行市场经济。（你可以想想，为甚么30年前中国不能像后来那样快速发展？我想，这是因为我们在1978年实施了改革开放的政策，这就是中国成功的关键。我们有一个重要的思想，社会主义也可以搞市场经济。制订经济政策，在政府宏观调控下，充分发挥市场在资源配置方面的作用。）
(BEGIN VIDEO)电视画面开始（CNN网络版第二部分）
ZAKARIA: People think that's a contradiction. You have the market economy where the market allocates resources. In socialism it's all central planning. How do you make both work?
扎卡里亚：人们认为这是一个矛盾，你实行市场经济，靠市场配置资源，而社会主义，所有一切是中央计划。你如何让两者都起作用？
WEN (voice of interpreter): The complete formulation of our economic policy is to give full play to the basic role of market forces in allocating resources under the macroeconomic guidance and regulation of the government.
温家宝：我们的经济政策，如果要完整的陈述，那就是在整体经济规划和政府的宏观调控下，充分发挥市场经济的资源配置在整体经济运行中所起的基础性作用。
We have one important piece of experience of the past 30 years, that is to ensure that both the visible hand and invisible hand are given pull play in regulating the market forces.
我们过去的30年，有一条重要的经验，就是要确保看得见的手（政府调控）和看不见的手（市场调控）这两只手，同时在调节市场上发挥作用。
If you are familiar with the classical works of Adam Smith, you know that there are two famous works of his. One is "The Wealth of Nations." The other is the book on the morality and ethics. And "The Wealth of Nations" deals more with the invisible hand, that is, there are the market forces. And the other book deals with social equity and justice. And in the other book he wrote, he stressed the importance of playing the regulatory role of the government to fairly distribute the wealth among the people.
其实，如果你读过亚当・斯密斯（经典著作）的话，你就会知道他的两本名著。一本是《国富论》，另一本是《道德情操论》。前者说的是市场的力量和作用，看不见的手，另一本书里较多地阐述了社会公平和正义。在他的书里，他强调国家要扮演重要的角色，通过政府的调节，把财富公平地分配到每个人手里。
If in a country most of the wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few, then this country can hardly witness harmony and stability.
如果一个国家的大部分财富集中在少数人手里，那么，这个国家就很难看到和谐与稳定。
The same approach also applies to the current U.S. economy. To address the current economic and financial problems in this country, we need to apply not only the visible hand, but also the invisible hand.
同样的情况，这也适用于现在美国的经济。为解决美国目前经济和金融问题，也是要采用两只手，不仅适用看得见的手，也适用看不见的手。
ZAKARIA: China's onward rise has taken many forms - economic, cultural and political. Naturally, it has had an increasingly active foreign policy - so far, somewhat narrowly focused on securing China's interests. I spoke to Premier Wen about China's larger world role.
扎卡里亚：中国的向前崛起发生在许多方面，经济的，文化的，政治的。自然而然地，在外交政策方面---目前，在一些中国感兴趣的安全领域，所起的作用也日益增强。我问温总理，关于这方面中国在世界的角色。
ZAKARIA: Many people see China as a superpower already. And they wonder, why is it not being more active in political resolution of issues such as the issue of Darfur, or the issue of Iran and its nuclear ambitions.
扎卡里亚：在许多人看来，中国已经是一个超级强国。但是他们很想知道，中国为什么不在政治解决诸如达尔福尔问题和伊朗有发展核武的野心等问题上发挥自己更多的作用呢？
There's a hope that China will play a role as a responsible stakeholder - to use Robert Zoellick's phrase when he was deputy secretary of state - and that China will be more active in managing the political problems in the world, and that so far, it has not been active.
人们希望中国扮演有责任的利益相关者的重要角色，用当年美国副国务卿罗伯特•佐力克的话来说，中国应该在世界重大政治问题上起到更积极的作用，直到目前为止，还没有看到中国的积极行动。
How would you react to that?
你对这些问题有何反应？
WEN (voice of interpreter): To answer this question, I need to correct some of the elements in your question. First, China is not a superpower.
温家宝：（在回答你的问题之前），我首先要纠正你的提问（中的一个错误），中国不是一个超级强国。
Although China has a population of 1.3 billion, and although in recent years China has registered fairly fast economic and social development since reform and opening up, China still has this problem of unbalanced development between different regions and between China's urban and rural areas. China remains a developing country.
中国有13亿人口，虽然这些年来因为改革开放，中国的经济和社会取得了较快的发展，但是中国是一个发展中国家，中国仍然存在城乡差别和区域发展不平衡的问题。
We still have 800 million farmers in rural areas, and we still dozens of million people living in poverty. To address our own problems, we need to do a great deal. China is not a superpower.
我们还有8亿农民生活在乡下，我们还有1200万人的绝对贫困人口，6000万人吃低保，靠吃救济维持基本生活。同时，每年我们需要关照到2300万城市失业者和大约2亿进城找工作的农民。我们不是一个超级大国，我们还有大量的问题需要自己解决。
That's why we need to focus on our own development and on our efforts to improve people's lives.
这就是为什么我们需要集中精力促进自身的发展，来努力改善人民的生活。
ZAKARIA: But surely, the Chinese government could pressure the Sudanese government, or the Iranian government, or the government in Burma to ease - to be less repressive. You have relations with all three of them.
扎卡里亚：但是可以确信，中国政府能够对苏丹政府施加压力，或者对伊朗政府，对缅甸政府，给与影响或者适当的动作，你们和上述三国都有（密切的）关系。
WEN (voice of interpreter): That brings me to your second question. Actually, in the international community, China is a justice-upholding country. We never trade our principles.
温家宝：我现在回答你（前面提）的第二个问题。实际上，中国在国际社会，是一个主持公平正义的国家，我们从来不会拿原则作交换。
Take the Darfur issue that you raised just now, for example. China has always advocated that we need to adopt a dual-track approach to seek a solution to the Darfur issue.
就拿你提到的达尔福尔问题来说，中国一直倡导采用多重形式和方法，解决达尔福尔问题。
China was among the first countries that sent - sending peacekeepers to Darfur. China was also the first country that gave assistance to Sudan. And we also keep our efforts to engage the leaders in Sudan, to try to seek a peaceful solution to the issue as quickly as possible.
中国是最早向达尔福尔派出国际维和部队的国家，也是最早向苏丹提供援助的国家。我们在不断促使苏丹领导人，努力寻求和平的手段让苏丹问题能够早日得到解决。
ZAKARIA: Do you think it would be dangerous for the world if Iran got nuclear weapons? And what do you think the world should do to try to stop that possibility?
扎卡里亚：你认为伊朗拥有核武器是危险的吗？你如何看待世界应当努力制止的可能性？
WEN (voice of interpreter): We are not supportive of a nuclearized Iran. We believe that Iran has the right to develop the utilization of nuclear energy in a peaceful way. But such efforts should be subject to the safeguards of the IAEA, and Iran should not develop nuclear weapons. As far as the Iranian nuclear issue is concerned, China's stand is clear-cut.
我们不赞成伊朗拥有核武器，我们认为伊朗可以利用核能，有权走和平发展核能的道路，但是这些活动必须接受国际原子能组织的监督。但是伊朗不能发展核武器。目前，中国对伊朗问题是关注的，因此，在伊核问题上，我们的态度是十分鲜明的。
Nevertheless, we hope that we can use peaceful talks to achieve the purpose, rather than resort to the willful use of force or the intimidation of force.
不管怎么说，我们都是希望能利用和谈的方式达到目的，动则诉诸武力或者武力威胁无助于问题的解决。
It's like treating the relationship between two individuals. If one individual tries to corner the other, then the effect will be counterproductive. That will do nothing in helping resolve the problem. Our purpose is to resolve the problem, not to escalate tensions.
就像处理两个人的关系一样，如果一个人试图将另一个人逼到墙角（绝境）的话，那会适得其反，不利于问题的解决。我们的目的是解决问题，而不是制造紧张局势。
And I also have a question for you. Don't you think that the efforts made by China in resolving the Korean nuclear issue and the position we have adopted in this regard have actually helped the situation on the Korean Peninsula move for the better, day by day?
那我反过来问你，中国在处理朝核问题上，我们采用彼此尊重的积极态度，实际上有助于朝鲜半岛局势，一天一天向好的方向发展，你不认为中国在解决朝鲜核问题上所做出的努力吗？
And of course, I know that it still takes time to see a thorough and a complete solution to the Korean nuclear issue and, on that basis, to help put in place security and stability in Northeast Asia. But what I would like to stress is that the model that we have adopted, and the efforts we have made, proved to be right in this direction.
当然，我知道，要看到朝鲜核问题彻底完全的解决，还要花费时间。基于这一点，我们将致力于推动东北亚的安全和稳定。但是我强调的是，我们所采用的这种方式和努力，证明这个方向是正确的。
ZAKARIA: Since you honored me by asking the question, I will say to you, Premier, that China's efforts in North Korea have been appreciated in the United States and around the world. And, of course, it makes people wish that China would be active in other areas in just the same productive way that it was in North Korea, because we see that it produces results.
扎卡里亚：很荣幸能回答你的问题，我要对你说，总理，中国在朝鲜问题上的努力，美国和全世界是很感激的。正因为如此，在围绕当今世界的许多方面，人们期待中国发挥自己的作用积极介入，正像在朝鲜问题上那样，让我们看到产生的成果。
WEN (voice of interpreter): We have gained a lot of experience and learned lessons from years of negotiations concerning the Six- Party Talks. And the progress made in the Six-Party Talks also has a lot to do with the close cooperation among the six parties.
温家宝：经历了这么多年的六方会谈，我们学习到了许多课程并获得了许多经验，六方会谈之所以取得进步，得益于参与的六方彼此之间有许多的密切合作。
(END VIDEO视频二结束)
ZAKARIA: Up next, Premier Wen Jiabao addresses tough issues - the Dalai Lama and Tiananmen Square.
扎卡里亚：下面的内容，与温家宝总理的谈话触及了达赖喇嘛和天安门广场
(BEGIN VIDEO)电视画面开始（CNN网络版第三部分）
ZAKARIA: In my conversation with Wen Jiabao, China's premier, one of the most complex and controversial subjects was the discussion of democracy.
扎卡里亚：在我与中国总理温家宝的访谈中，最复杂并最有争议的题目之一，是关于民主的讨论。
Wen has deep experience with the issue. In 1989, he was one of the Communist Party officials who went to Tiananmen Square to talk to the protestors.
温亲身经历了1989年学潮，他是来到天安门广场与抗议者对话的共产党官员之一，
I asked him whether that experience had made him want to slow down or stop political reform. Listen to what he had to say.
我问他那次经验是否导致他希望放慢或停止政治改革，听听他是怎么说的。
ZAKARIA: I will take advantage of your kindness and ask a question that many people around the world wonder about.
扎卡里亚：我将利用你的善意问你一个全球许多人都想知道的一个问题
There is a very famous photograph of you at Tiananmen Square in 1989. What lesson did you take from your experiences in dealing with that problem in 1989?
这是拍摄于1989年你在天安门广场的一张很著名的照片，处理1989年的问题，你从中获得的经验里学到了什么？
WEN (voice of interpreter): I believe that, while moving ahead with the economic reforms, we also need to advance political reforms. As our development is comprehensive in nature, our reform should also be comprehensive.
温家宝：我觉得（认为），我们国家在推进经济体制改革同时，必须继续需推进政治体制改革，我们的发展应该是全面的发展，我们改革也应该是全面的改革。
I think the core of your question is about the development of democracy in China. I believe, when it comes to the development of democracy in China, we talk about progress to be made in three areas.
其实你的问题的核心，是关心中国的民主政治发展。我认为，民主政治在中国的发展，不外乎在三个方面：
Number one, we need to gradually improve the democratic election system, so that state power will truly belong to the people, and state power will be used to serve the people.
第一，逐步完善民主选举制度，使国家权力真正属于人民，国家的权力真正服务于人民。
Number two, we need to improve the legal system, run the country according to law and establish the country under the rule of law. And we need to build an independent and just judicial system.
第二，改革完善法律制度，依法治国，建立法治国家，使司法保持独立和公正。
Number three, government should be subject to oversight by the people, and if (ph) you ask us, call on us to increase transparency in government affairs. And particularly, it is also necessary for government to accept oversight by the news media and other parties.
第三，政府必须接受群众的监督，增加政府的清廉和透明度，特别是，政府要接受新闻媒体和其他党派的监督。（还有一个很重要因素，在中国发展民主，必须考虑中国的国情，需要引进适合中国国情的制度，要循序渐进。）
ZAKARIA: When I go to China and I'm in the hotel, and if I type in the words "Tiananmen Square" in my computer, I get a firewall, what some people call "the Great Firewall of China." Can you be an advanced society, if you don't have freedom of information, to find out information on the Internet?
扎拉里亚：我在中国住酒店时，如果我在电脑中输入“天安门广场”的字眼，会碰到防火墙阻挡，有人称为“伟大的中国防火墙”。你认为，如果一个资讯不开放的社会、不能在互联网上找到信息的社会，能成为一个先进社会吗？
WEN (voice of interpreter): China now has over 200 million Internet users. And the freedom of Internet in China is recognized by many, even from the West.
温家宝：中国的互联网，现在有超过两亿互联网用户。中国互联网是自由的，即使是西方国家的许多人所公认的。
Nonetheless, to uphold state security, China, like many countries in the world, has also imposed some proper restrictions. And that is for the safety - that is for the overall safety of the country and for the freedom of the majority of the people.
当然，为了维护国家安全，任何国家都会对互联网采取必要的限制。这也是为了维护更多人的自由和为了国家的安全。
I can also tell you, on the Internet in China, you can have access to a lot of postings that are quite critical about the government. I frequently browse the Internet.
我也可以告诉你，你也可以在中国的互联网，看到许多直接批评政府的帖子，通过读那些帖子，我们可以找出存在问题，进一步改进工作。我不认为一个制度或政府应该害怕批评的意见或看法。我经常浏览互联网，了解情况。
ZAKARIA: What are your favorite sites?
扎拉里亚：你最喜欢的站点是什么？
WEN (voice of interpreter): I browsed a lot of Internet web sites.
温家宝：我浏览过许多网站。
ZAKARIA: May I ask you about another set of possible talks? The Dalai Lama has said, now, it appears that he would accept China's rule in Tibet. He accepts the socialist system in Tibet. And what he asks for is cultural autonomy and a certain degree of political autonomy.
扎卡里亚：我可以问你关于另一个可能的会谈吗？达赖喇嘛过去说过，现在公开表明，他愿意接受中国对西藏的管辖，他愿意接受目前在西藏的社会制度，他所寻求的是文化的自治和一定程度上的政治的自治。
The talks apparently are stuck at a lower level between the Tibetans and the Chinese government. Why don't you, given your power and your negotiating skills, take the issue yourself, and you or President Hu Jintao were to negotiate directly with the Dalai Lama and solve this issue once and for all, for the benefit of the Chinese people and, of course, the Tibetan people who are also in China?
这个会谈，显然在藏人和中国中央政府之间较低级别的层次上卡住了，你为什么不运用你的权力和谈判技巧，由你或国家主席胡锦涛接手，与达赖喇嘛直接谈判，解决西藏问题，以造福于中国人民，当然也包括在中国的西藏人民？
WEN (voice of interpreter): In many places all over the world, the Dalai Lama keeps preaching about the idea of the so-called autonomy in the greater Tibetan region. And actually, the so-called autonomy that he pursues is actually to use religion to intervene in politics. And they want to separate the so-called "greater Tibetan region" from the motherland.
温家宝：他在世界的许多地方，大力宣扬所谓大藏区的所谓的自治，其目的实际上就是利用宗教，干预政治，试图使“大藏区”从中国分裂脱离出去。
And many people in the United States have no idea how big is the so-called "greater Tibetan region." The so-called "greater Tibetan region," preached by the Dalai Lama, actually covers Tibet, Sichuan, Yunnan, Qinghai and Gansu - altogether, five provinces. And the area covered by this so-called "greater Tibetan region" accounts for a quarter of China's territory.
很多美国人并不知道，“大藏区”究竟有多大？达赖喇嘛鼓吹的所谓“大藏区”，包括西藏、四川、云南、青海和甘肃---五个省，所涉及的领土，相当于中国领土的四分之一。（我们和达赖的问题不是民族、宗教或文化问题，而是关系到维护国家统一的原则问题。我们要看到达赖的两面性，他一方面是宗教领袖，在西藏具有一定的影响力，特别是在宗教方面；另一方面，他不是普通的宗教人物，他建立的所谓西藏流亡政府，就是要把西藏从中国分裂出去。）
For decades, our policy towards the Dalai Lama remains unchanged. That is, as long as the Dalai Lama is willing to recognize that Tibet is an inalienable part of China's territory, and as long as the Dalai Lama gives up his separatist activities, we are willing to have contact and talks with him or his representatives. Now, sincerity holds the key to producing results out of the talks.
几十年来，我们对达赖的政策始终未变，只要他承认西藏是中国领土不可分割的一部份，并且放弃分裂图谋，我们就愿意和他或者他的代表进行接触、对话，商谈的结果在于要有诚意。我是否与他接触并不是问题。我们希望他用行动表明诚意，打破僵局。
(END VIDEO视频三结束)
(BEGIN VIDEO)电视画面开始（CNN网络版第四部分）
ZAKARIA: What action would you like to see from the Dalai Lama that would show sincerity?
扎卡里亚：你希望看到达赖喇嘛用什么行动来表达其诚意？
WEN (voice of interpreter): Actually, I already made it clear that, when we observe any individual, the Dalai Lama included, we should not only watch what - we should not only observe what he says, but also watch what he does.
温家宝：实际上我已经清楚表明了。我们观察任何人，包括达赖喇嘛，我们不只要听他说什么，还要看他做什么，必要时我们也会考虑提高对话的层次。
His sincerity can be demonstrated in giving up separatist activities. But then, everything depends on the development of the situation.
他的诚意就是能够真正放弃分裂祖国的活动，到那个时候我们再看事态的发展。
ZAKARIA: China's premier, Wen Jiabao, is a reading man a poet, and I asked him about something he was reading.
中国的总理温家宝，是一个喜欢读书和作诗的人，我问他过去读过的一些书。
ZAKARIA: You have said that you have read the works of Marcus Aurelius 100 times. Marcus Aurelius is a famous Stoic philosopher.
扎卡里亚：你说过你曾经上百次读过马克・奥里利乌斯作品，他是一个著名的哲学家。
My reading of him says that one should not be involved in the self and in any kind of pursuits that are self-interested, but should be more for the community as a whole.
从他的书里我读到，他说一个人不应当只是关注自我，注重自我的利益，应当更多的考虑到社会这个整体。
When I go to China these days, I'm struck by how much individualism there is, how much consumerism there is. Are you trying to send a signal to the Chinese people to think less about themselves and more about the community?
我在中国的日子里，看到太多的人倾向于个人主义和消费享乐主义，你是否试图传递给他们一个信号，让中国人更多的关注这个社会而不仅仅是自己？
WEN (voice of interpreter): It is true. I did read the "Meditations" written by Marcus Aurelius Antonio many occasions. And I was very deeply impressed by the words that he wrote in the book to the effect that, where are those people who were great for a time? They are all gone, living only a story, or some even just half a story. So, I draw the conclusion that only people are in the position to create history and to write history.
温家宝：我是说过，我曾多次读过马克・奥里利乌斯写的《沉思录》，他在书里写的话深深打动了我，我对其中的一句话记忆很深刻：看那些所谓赫赫一时的人物，现在都到哪里去了？最后都烟消云散了，留下的只是一个故事，有的连一个故事还不是，只是半个故事，真正创造历史的、并且书写历史的，只有人民。
I very much value morality. And I do believe that entrepreneurs, economists and statesmen alike should pay much more attention to morality and ethics.
我十分重视道德，我认为企业家、经济学家、政治家都应该更多的关注道德和职业操守。
In my mind, the highest standard to measure the ethics and morality is justice.
在我的思想里，衡量道德和道德规范的最高标准，就是公正。
It is true, in the course of China's economic development, some companies have actually pursued their profits at the expense of morality. And we will never allow such things to happen. We will not allow economic growth at the expense of the loss of morality, because such an approach simply cannot be sustained. That's why we advocate corporate, occupational and social ethics.
我们在经济发展过程中，许多企业为了追逐利润而丧失了道德，这是我所不允许的。我们决不允许丧失道德来发展经济，因为那注定是不会持久的，因此我们提倡要有企业道德、职业道德和社会道德。
ZAKARIA: You've talked about elections many times. Do you think in 25 years there will be national elections in which there will be a competition, there will be perhaps two parties running for the positions such as your own?
扎拉里亚：关于选举，你以前谈过多次，那么，25年后，中国是否会通过国家选举，让两个政党来竞争像你这样的国家领导人的席位呢？
WEN (voice of interpreter): It's hard for me to predict what will happen in 25 years' time.This being said, I have this conviction that China's democracy will continue to grow.
温家宝： 25年以后的事情我很难预见，这个问题我开始的时候说过，但是我有一个信念，我认为中国的民主政治一定会继续发展。
In 20 to 30 years' time, the whole Chinese society will be more democratic and fairer, and the legal system in China will further be improved. Socialism, as we see it, will further mature and improve.
再过二、三十年，中国将会更加民主，法制会更加完善，社会，会更加公正。
ZAKARIA: On that happy note, I thank you, Your Excellency. I'm sure your people are worried that we've taken a little bit extra time. And I thank you in advance for your kindness and your frankness.
扎卡里亚：总理阁下，谢谢您，我相信您的部下已经不开心了，我们已经超出了一点点预定的访谈时间，再次谢谢你的善意和你的坦诚。
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