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耶稣基督受死的50个理由-兼驳误解和攻击(121-140楼讨论)

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回复 #112 朽木 的帖子
本文由 乡下人进城 在 2007-6-22 04:58 发表于: 倍可亲.美国 ( backchina.com )

我说,你给大家推荐的这是什么书啊?护教的还是正儿八经的神学学术著作?如果是护教的,那你岂不是在糊弄大家?如果是正经的学术著作,那么神学界对此书及其作者的评价如何?总该多少介绍两句吧?

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原帖由 朽木 于 2007-6-22 04:53 发表


你从不迷路, 就是一读帖就迷糊

在给你解释清楚一点哈, "惟独圣经"意思是只有圣经才是来自神自己的启示, 才是最高权威. 其它任何伟人的作品,虽然有参考价值, 但不是启示, 没有绝对权威.
...

谢谢解释哈。

那前面乡老兄举的那么些圣经里不支持三位一体的经文,我觉得你没有很好地解释啊?
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原帖由 朽木 于 2007-6-22 04:06 发表



我已经对你提出的几段经文作出解释, 你可以不接受, 这只能说明我们两个人的理解不同.

我给出了我的解释, 你如果只是不接受, 又给不出支持你结论的解释, 我就只能理解为是你不愿意接受, 而不是有理由不 ...

当然不能接受。拿分工来解person,分明就是偷换概念。

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QUOTE:
原帖由 乡下人进城 于 2007-6-22 04:58 发表
我说,你给大家推荐的这是什么书啊?护教的还是正儿八经的神学学术著作?如果是护教的,那你岂不是在糊弄大家?如果是正经的学术著作,那么神学界对此书及其作者的评价如何?总该多少介绍两句吧?

你抽空学几句英文, 肯定比你反基有用.




可雕,看在谁手里。
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原帖由 朽木 于 2007-6-22 05:03 发表


你抽空学几句英文, 肯定比你反基有用.

我英文再不好还能看得懂那书的题目。说说吧,那本书在神学界评价怎么样?

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QUOTE:
原帖由 朽木 于 2007-6-22 05:03 发表


你抽空学几句英文, 肯定比你反基有用.

可惜咱英文也不好,刚才老板把文章打回来重写呢。


要不您受累给翻译几句关键的?
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QUOTE:
原帖由 朽木 于 2007-6-22 04:06 发表



我已经对你提出的几段经文作出解释, 你可以不接受, 这只能说明我们两个人的理解不同.

我给出了我的解释, 你如果只是不接受, 又给不出支持你结论的解释, 我就只能理解为是你不愿意接受, 而不是有理由不 ...

如果你还有其它经文, 请罗列出来.

我还在等着你出示耶稣说干犯了父的可以得赦免的经文指教乡下人呢。

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是啊是啊,“朽木”同学,我们大家都在等着呢。

哈哈!

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原帖由 乡下人进城 于 2007-6-22 05:06 发表

我英文再不好还能看得懂那书的题目。说说吧,那本书在神学界评价怎么样?

你的"神学界"指的是哪些人? 对于文本批判学者来说, 应该不会受欢迎. 但是对保守的基督教学者来说, 没有看到什么反对意见. 你知道有什么反对意见吗?




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“朽木”同学,乡兄和我们大家都还在等着你出示耶稣说干犯了父的可以得赦免的经文呢。

到底有没有啊?没有的话,道个歉,承认自己搞错了,不就行了吗?

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原帖由 乡下人进城 于 2007-6-22 05:14 发表


我还在等着你出示耶稣说干犯了父的可以得赦免的经文指教乡下人呢。

这你恐怕等不到了

我只是突然想到那段经文, 手头没有圣经, 所以我在原贴里说"意思是....".

在原来的经文里面, 没有明确的写"干犯父的"这几个字.  只说了干犯子和"亵渎和干犯"圣灵两件事, 因为在"亵渎"和"干犯"圣灵之前都有"惟独"二字, 在我的印象里, 把"干犯父"也加进去了.

这次你对了,
  
下次引用圣经时要小心. 不可以完全凭记忆引用.




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原帖由 朽木 于 2007-6-22 05:34 发表


你的"神学界"指的是哪些人? 对于文本批判学者来说, 应该不会受欢迎. 但是对保守的基督教学者来说, 没有看到什么反对意见. 你知道有什么反对意见吗?

我说神学界是指作神学研究的人,包括从事文本批评、甄别经文真伪的那些学者,而不是指忙于传教、忙于在教堂给信众们灌输圣经无误的那些神棍。

Comma Johanneum 涉及到教会史、教义史,更涉及到圣经文本的历史批评。既然你是就 Comma Johanneum 这个问题推荐的书,那当然就应该介绍一下教会史学者和圣经文本批评学者的评价。

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QUOTE:
原帖由 嘁哩喀喳 于 2007-6-22 05:40 发表
“朽木”同学,乡兄和我们大家都还在等着你出示耶稣说干犯了父的可以得赦免的经文呢。

到底有没有啊?没有的话,道个歉,承认自己搞错了,不就行了吗?

哈哈, 让你喊对一回, 继续跟在老乡后边喊啊, 什么时候你自己一出来喊, 就很难有对的时候了




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QUOTE:
原帖由 朽木 于 2007-6-22 05:46 发表


这你恐怕等不到了

我只是突然想到那段经文, 手头没有圣经, 所以我在原贴里说"意思是....".

在原来的经文里面, 没有明确的写"干犯父的"这几个字.  只说了干犯子和"亵渎和 ...

好吧,说明了就好。

给你出个小问题:那段经文里的“圣灵”是指什么?

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原帖由 朽木 于 2007-6-22 05:50 发表


哈哈, 让你喊对一回, 继续跟在老乡后边喊啊, 什么时候你自己一出来喊, 就很难有对的时候了

甭那么怎么了不起的样子。老七的问题到现在我还没看到你解答的怎么好的。

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原帖由 追求永生 于 2007-6-21 14:27 发表

神的计划和人的责任是两码事。而神的计划和人的行动不应当互相矛盾。

那么您的神是不是控制一切,包括您的命运您的思想您的出生您的行为了呢?

俺您说的,“救赎”计划早就有了,名单早就定了;又表示,人要不按神的意志悔过就不会被救赎 ---- 被不被救赎这不是决定于人的行为了吗? 您咋说“不矛盾”呢?

您混乱得够可以的了,醒醒吧。。

另外,讲不通了就请坦诚一点,说一句无法回答又不丢人,用不着弄一大段说教来晃人眼,还大体字。。。对人不礼貌诶~

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QUOTE:
原帖由 乡下人进城 于 2007-6-22 05:48 发表


我说神学界是指作神学研究的人,包括从事文本批评、甄别经文真伪的那些学者,而不是指忙于传教、忙于在教堂给信众们灌输圣经无误的那些神棍。

Comma Johanneum 涉及到教会史、教义史,更涉及到圣经文本的 ...

除了KJV以外, 大部分新译本中已经不包括Comma Johanneum, 但基本上都有注脚. 指出早期文本的不同.

那本书虽然书名是为KJV做辩护, 但更多的是从历史的角度, 对文本分析进行了详细的分析.  在论及Comma Johanneum这一争议时, 作者诚实的分析了当时的背景和分歧出现的原因. 并对可能发生的时间进行了分析. 早期文本的差别主要是希腊文本和拉丁文本之间的差异, 是"增加的"还是"丢掉了", 取决于人们相信哪些文本更可靠. 作者对当时的情况做了非常细致的分析, 提出各种可能发生的情况. 尽管在大多数译本中这一节已经不存在, 并不一定说明在原本中真的不存在. 所以, 无论是从学术上还是从信仰上, 作者的观点都是值得肯定的.

我把这段ZT于此, 请懂英文的读者自己阅读.


3. The Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7)

In the Textus Receptus 1 John 5:7-8 reads as follows:

7 For there are three that bear witness IN HEAVEN, THE FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE. 8 AND THERE ARE THREE THAT BEAR WITNESS IN EARTH, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The words printed in capital letters constitute the so-called Johannine comma, the best known of the Latin Vulgate readings of the Textus Receptus, a reading which, on believing principles, must be regarded as possibly genuine. This comma has been the occasion of much controversy and is still an object of interest to textual critics. One of the more recent discussions of it is found in Windisch's Katholischen Briefe (revised by Preisker, 1951); (26) a more accessible treatment of it in English is that provided by A. D. Brooke (1912) in the International Critical Commentary. (27) Metzger (1964) also deals with this passage in his handbook, but briefly. (28)

(a) How the Johannine Comma Entered the Textus Receptus

As has been observed above, the Textus Receptus has both its human aspect and its divine aspect, like the Protestant Reformation itself or any other work of God's providence. And when we consider the manner in which the Johannine comma entered the Textus Receptus, we see this human element at work. Erasmus omitted the Johannine comma from the first edition (1516) of his printed Greek New Testament on the ground that it occurred only in the Latin version and not in any Greek manuscript. To quiet the outcry that arose, he agreed to restore it if but one Greek manuscript could be found which contained it. When one such manuscript was discovered soon afterwards, bound by his promise, he included the disputed reading in his third edition (1522), and thus it gained a permanent place in the Textus Receptus. The manuscript which forced Erasmus to reverse his stand seems to have been 61, a 15th or 16th-century manuscript now kept at Trinity College, Dublin. Many critics believe that this manuscript was written at Oxford about 1520 for the special purpose of refuting Erasmus, and this is what Erasmus himself suggested in his notes.

The Johannine comma is also found in Codex Ravianus, in the margin of 88, and in 629. The evidence of these three manuscripts, however, is not regarded as very weighty, since the first two are thought to have taken this disputed reading from early printed Greek texts and the latter (like 61) from the Vulgate.

But whatever may have been the immediate cause, still, in the last analysis, it was not trickery which was responsible for the inclusion of the Johannine comma in the Textus Receptus but the usage of the Latin-speaking Church. It was this usage which made men feel that this.reading ought to be included in the Greek text and eager to keep it there after its inclusion had been accomplished. Back of this usage, we may well believe, was the guiding providence of God, and therefore the Johannine comma ought to be retained as at least possibly genuine.

(b) The Early Existence of the Johannine Comma

Evidence for the early existence of the Johannine comma is found in the Latin versions and in the writings of the Latin Church Fathers. For example, it seems to have been quoted at Carthage by Cyprian (c. 250) who writes as follows: "And again concerning the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit it is written: and the Three are One." (29) It is true that Facundus, a 6th-century African bishop, interpreted Cyprian as referring to the following verse, (30) but, as Scrivener (1833) remarks, it is "surely safer and more candid" to admit that Cyprian read the Johannine comma in his New Testament manuscript "than to resort to the explanation of Facundus." (31)

The first undisputed citations of the Johannine comma occur in the writing of two 4th-century Spanish bishops, Priscillian, (32) who in 385 was beheaded by the Emperor Maximus on the charge of sorcery and heresy, and Idacius Clarus, (33) Priscillian's principal adversary and accuser. In the 5th century the Johannine comma was quoted by several orthodox African writers to defend the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals, who ruled North Africa from 489 to 534 and were fanatically attached to the Arian heresy. (34) And about the same time it was cited by Cassiodorus (480-570), in Italy. (35) The comma is also found in r an Old Latin manuscript of the 5th or 6th century, and in the Speculum, a treatise which contains an Old Latin text. It was not included in Jerome's original edition of the Latin Vulgate but around the year 800 it was taken into the text of the Vulgate from the Old Latin manuscripts. It was found in the great mass of the later Vulgate manuscripts and in the Clementine edition of the Vulgate, the official Bible of the Roman Catholic Church.

(c) Is the Johannine Comma an Interpolation?

Thus on the basis of the external evidence it is at least possible that the Johannine comma is a reading that somehow dropped out of the Greek New Testament text but was preserved in the Latin text through the usage of the Latin-speaking Church, and this possibility grows more and more toward probability as we consider the internal evidence.

In the first place, how did the Johannine comma originate if it be not genuine, and how did it come to be interpolated into the Latin New Testament text? To this question modern scholars have a ready answer. It arose, they say, as a trinitarian interpretation of I John 5:8, which originally read as follows: For there are three that bear witness the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. Augustine was one of those who interpreted 1 John 5:8 as referring to the Trinity. "If we wish to inquire about these things, what they signify, not absurdly does the Trinity suggest Itself, who is the one, only, true, and highest God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, concerning whom it could most truly be said, Three are Witnesses, and the Three are One. By the word spirit we consider God the Father to be signified, concerning the worship of whom the Lord spoke, when He said, God is a spirit. By the word blood the Son is signified, because the Word was made flesh. And by the word water we understand the Holy Spirit. For when Jesus spoke concerning the water which He was about to give the thirsty, the evangelist says, This He spake concerning the Spirit whom those that believed in Him would receive. " (36)

Thus, according to the critical theory, there grew up in the Latin speaking regions of ancient Christendom a trinitarian interpretation of the spirit, the water, and the blood mentioned in 1 John 5:8, the spirit signifying the Father, the blood the Son, and the water the Holy Spirit And out of this trinitarian interpretation of 1 John 5:8 developed the Johannine comma, which contrasts the witness of the Holy Trinity in heaven with the witness of the spirit, the water, and the blood on earth.

But just at this point the critical theory encounters a serious difficulty. If the comma originated in a trinitarian interpretation of 1 John 5:8, why does it not contain the usual trinitarian formula, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Why does it exhibit the singular combination, never met with elsewhere, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit? According to some critics, this unusual phraseology was due to the efforts of the interpolator who first inserted the Johannine comma into the New Testament text. In a mistaken attempt to imitate the  of the Apostle John, he changed the term Son to the term Word. But this is to attribute to the interpolator a craftiness which thwarted his own purpose in making this interpolation, which was surely to uphold the doctrine of the Trinity, including the eternal generation of the Son. With this as his main concern it is very unlikely that he would abandon the time-honored formula, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and devise an altogether new one, Father, Word, and Holy Spirit.

In the second place, the omission of the Johannine comma seems to leave the passage incomplete. For it is a common scriptural usage to present solemn truths or warnings in groups of three or four, for example, the repeated Three things, yea four of Proverbs 30, and the constantly recurring refrain, for three transgressions and for four, of the prophet Amos. In Genesis 40 the butler saw three branches and the baker saw three baskets. And in Matt. 12:40 Jesus says, As Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. It is in accord with biblical usage, therefore, to expect that in 1 John 5:7-8 the formula, there are three that bear witness, will be repeated at least twice. When the Johannine comma is included, the formula is repeated twice. When the comma is omitted, the formula is repeated only once, which seems strange.

In the third place, the omission of the Johannine comma involves a grammatical difficulty. The words spirit, water, and blood are neuter in gender, but in 1 John 5:8 they are treated as masculine. If the Johannine comma is rejected, it is hard to explain this irregularity. It is usually said that in 1 John 5:8 the spirit, the water, and the blood are personalized and that this is the reason for the adoption of the masculine gender. But it is hard to see how such personalization would involve the change from the neuter to the masculine. For in verse 6 the word Spirit plainly refers to the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Trinity. Surely in this verse the word Spirit is "personalized," and yet the neuter gender is used. Therefore since personalization did not bring about a change of gender in verse 6, it cannot fairly be pleaded as the reason for such a change in verse 8. If, however, the Johannine comma is retained, a reason for placing the neuter nouns spirit, water, and blood in the masculine gender becomes readily apparent. It was due to the influence of the nouns Father and Word, which are masculine. Thus the hypothesis that the Johannine comma is an interpolation is full of difficulties.

(d) Reasons for the Possible Omission of the Johannine Comma

For the absence of the Johannine comma from all New Testament documents save those of the Latin-speaking West the following explanations are possible.

In the first place, it must be remembered that the comma could easily have been omitted accidentally through a common type of error which is called homoioteleuton (similar ending). A scribe copying 1 John 5:7-8 under distracting conditions might have begun to write down these words of verse 7, there are three that bear witness, but have been forced to look up before his pen had completed this task. When he resumed his work, his eye fell by mistake on the identical expression in verse 8. This error would cause him to omit all of the Johannine comma except the words in earth, and these might easily have been dropped later in the copying of this faulty copy. Such an accidental omission might even have occurred several times, and in this way there might have grown up a considerable number of Greek manuscripts which did not contain this reading.

In the second place, it must be remembered that during the 2nd and 3rd centuries (between 220 and 270, according to Harnack); (37) the heresy which orthodox Christians were called upon to combat was not Arianism (since this error had not yet arisen) but Sabellianism (so named after Sabellius, one of its principal promoters), according to which the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were one in the sense that they were identical. Those that advocated this heretical view were called Patripassians (Father-sufferers), because they believed that God the Father, being identical with Christ, suffered and died upon the cross, and Monarchians, because they claimed to uphold the Monarchy (sole-government) of God.

It is possible, therefore, that the Sabellian heresy brought the Johannine comma into disfavor with orthodox Christians. The statement, these three are one, no doubt seemed to them to teach the Sabellian view that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were identical. And if during the course of the controversy manuscripts were discovered which had lost this reading in the accidental manner described above, it is easy to see how the orthodox party would consider these mutilated manuscripts to represent the true text and regard the Johannine comma as a heretical addition. In the Greek-speaking East especially the comma would be unanimously rejected, for here the struggle against Sabellianism was particularly severe.

Thus it was not impossible that during the 3rd century amid the stress and strain of the Sabellian controversy, the Johannine comma lost its place in the Greek text, but was preserved in the Latin texts of Africa and Spain, where the influence of Sabellianism was probably not so great. In other words, it is not impossible that the Johannine comma was one of those few true readings of the Latin Vulgate not occurring in the Traditional Greek Text but incorporated into the Textus Receptus under the guiding providence of God. In these rare instances God called upon the usage of the Latin-speaking Church to correct the usage of the Greek speaking Church. (38)




可雕,看在谁手里。
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QUOTE:
原帖由 乡下人进城 于 2007-6-22 05:51 发表


好吧,说明了就好。

给你出个小问题:那段经文里的“圣灵”是指什么?

这样好不好, 你读巴特的"罗马书注释", 我给你解释这段经文   怎么样?




可雕,看在谁手里。
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QUOTE:
原帖由 朽木 于 2007-6-22 06:41 发表



这样好不好, 你读巴特的\\罗马书注释\\, 我给你解释这段经文   怎么样?

呵呵,耍赖皮哦!你解释经文还要别人满足你条件啊?

讨论很精彩, 很多我不懂的, 不过很有趣.
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回复 #137 朽木 的帖子
本文由 乡下人进城 在 2007-6-22 06:47 发表于: 倍可亲.美国 ( backchina.com )

我提出的问题你根本没回答嘛!神学学术界对他的书的评价呢?你在129楼说,他的书“对于文本批判学者来说, 应该不会受欢迎”。请问是怎么个不受欢迎法呢?为什么?是学术水平不高,还是学术不端?还是处于其他什么原因?能不能给介绍一下啊?
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